Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Well, good morning everyone. Welcome to the eighth edition of Haller's Playbook. And before we start, I'd just like to say thank you to Mass Group who are the sponsors of this podcast.
In a world where the financial markets are still extremely fractious, not quite sure what to make of interest rates and and level of markets, MAS Group provides significant liquidity in foreign exchange and gold in the crypto world and also in the funds investment.
So thank you to Mass for your support.
We continue the theme of marrying up business issues with top sporting scenarios. And absolute pleasure for me to introduce Tony Golan onto the call.
He's talking to us from Australia.
Tony is one of the top racehorse trainers in the market and he's going to correct me because I'm sure I'll get some of it wrong. But a remarkable kind of win rate of around 16%. But for me and for any casual better on a horse race, it's all about the places as well because we don't know enough, do we? So a 42% win rate on places for me as the amateur seems a really, really top number.
And remarkably, Tony, his story began in a Australian town called Toowoomba where I went and played rugby on an England tour many years ago.
From Cairns to Toowoomba, then Brisbane and Toowoomba was one of my favorite stop off points, not least cause it was a hard rugby match but we got to see the place and it's a terrific area. But Tony can tell us more. So Tony, welcome first of all from Australia and I'd just love to hear from you first of all, how's the season going?
And then please tell us a little bit about your start point because in this world where we know where you are now, but where did you start? And Toowoomba, we have that, an automatic connection. So please tell me a little bit more.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks Simon. Thanks for having me on the podcast. The season firstly it's going quite well. Our season starts the 1st of August, so we're just into our new season, 1st of August to the 31st of July. We're going along quite well. 20 Metro winners already which were hitting the ground running pretty good.
Yeah, I started back in Toowoomba, I guess you call it a large country town. It was not quite big enough to be a city where a lot of country people come in, you know, before they get to the big city of Brisbane, which is a few hours, you know, east of Toowoomba. So it was a great place to grow up. My father come from a smaller country Town called Bringalilli. You know, we come from that country, country background. And, you know, I enjoyed my time growing up there and that's where I cut my teeth learning a train.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: And so when you, when you first had that interest in. In training horses and it was Toowoomba, that was the start point.
And is that. Because that's just where you got that passion or where was the connection there?
[00:03:27] Speaker A: That's where I grew up. And my father, like I said, obviously your father, everyone's. Everyone's old man played a fair bearing on their life as a young boy.
He grew up loving horse. Loving horses. He was a publican, then he went training horses. But he grew up on horseback, up on the land. So I was always around the stables as a young boy growing up, you know, following your dad around, which is pretty typical of, I'm pretty sure the same over there as what it is here in Australia.
I was just like any other country kid. I played a bit of footy, like go to the stables and help my dad out. And when football did, probably didn't become an option for me. It wasn't rugby, the rugby league.
I elected to really try and get stuck into the horses. And I started training quite early. I began my career, I was 20 when I first began my career in Toowoomba with I think about four. Four horses. So it was something I always wanted to do.
Just like a lot of boys, I want to follow in my dad's footsteps and that's how I started.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Fantastic. And I completely buy into the following your dad's footsteps. My dad was a pilot and I did momentarily think about following in his footsteps until I failed my physics O level and was told that there was no way they'd accept me. So that changed pretty quick.
But listen, I was gonna just remind you. And again, back to starting points.
The record shows your first win in 1999 with Nova Serura.
Just how memorable was that for you? When you look back, you've won, I think, 10 successive top trainer premierships.
But the first win, how important is that? And just talk us through your memories of that.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it was funny, actually. A horse called Carbon Shadow was my first winner at Clifford park, which is our local Toowoomba racetrack. And yeah, it was very special, but Nova Serua was my first Metropolitan winner in Brisbane, and she was really special. Within that first 12 months, I trained my first listed winner, which is, you know, your first bit of black type success. And. And to be honest, I think of the young guy. I was 20 at the time. I.
Yeah, 2020 at the time. Yeah, I. It would all come a bit too quick. You know, I thought I was. I probably got ahead of myself a little bit. I thought it was a bit easier than what it was, and I guess it was.
It was the next probably 10 years that made me more as a trainer than that first year and that first win. But it's a very special occasion. I remember my first loss, certainly remember my first win and that.
[00:05:53] Speaker B: On that first win occasion, did you have an expectation, you know, was the horse a favorite or was it.
Was it a surprise to everyone, including you, or pre race, what was the view?
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it was in the market. It was. You know, you get very few surprises where they win. When you don't think they could win. You get a lot more disappointment in this game. You probably go there more optimistic and go away, you know, with your tail between your legs more so than you do, you know, go there with no expectation and they win for you. So I was expecting to win, but it was very early. I was very much learning on the go. I was. I loved it. I absolutely loved training. I still do now, but I love being with the horses. And to get the first win was. It just felt like good reward for effort, I guess, is the best way to look at it.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Well, so I want to dig just into behind the scenes a little bit. But before I do that, just asking about, you know, the sporting. Summer has just been endless, or winter, depending, you know, which hemisphere you're in. And, you know, you've had the, you know, the British Arch Lions series in Australia.
You know, you've had the Proteus come playing cricket against the Australian side. Obviously, you always in the background, you've got Aussie rules and rugby league. And dare I say it, we're traveling down to Australia with a hope to win the Ashes.
I'm sure the Australian cricket team will have completely different views on that.
You can count on the fingers of one hand, the number of England sides are actually gone to Australia and brought back the Ashes. So that's going to be tough. Where does horse racing sit in that kind of. Australia is just a supreme sporting nation. We know that. But where does horse racing sit in that kind of.
In that order of things?
[00:07:42] Speaker A: That's a very good question.
I probably think of us more of a bubble sport still. We're not fully mainstream like your cricket, but Aussie rules, rugby league, rugby union down here, but we're probably that next tier down.
Aussies love a punt. I think per head, per capita, we're One of the highest gambling nations in the world.
So we love a punt. So even in economic downturns or when interest rates are high and people are struggling, people still find money for a punt. So horse racing is still on the forefront, but we're not the top main tier sport. I actually just spent a week over at Royal Ascot in your summer. Weather was beautiful.
I think our sport's probably a little bit healthier here as far as betting wise goes, but we're still not the.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Top, not the top tier and I understand that. And in the context of horse racing as a sport worldwide, how much communication you mentioned you went to Royal Ascot.
Was that for a bit of fun or you fact finding on ways you can work more together as an industry or a bit of both.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: I actually had a horse over there in work with a British trainer. We bought the ready to runs over there and we kept it in work over there and we took a group of owners over and I actually went there as an owner, not a trainer. That horse had another couple of runs in England. It's actually in quarantine now to come back out to Australia. So our sport's very much global now.
There's a lot of connections between the north and Southern hemisphere when it comes to horse racing, certainly things that weren't happening, you know, 20 years ago. So we're far more global. And I guess my business, you know, as a brand, we're really trying to grow in that global market now. So we're getting over there, exposing ourselves to the Northern hemisphere and hopefully exposing them to us as well. So.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: And so when you move, I mean we, we always hear, I mean back in my day about a podcast, in fact, with a rugby World cup winner in the women's game in the 90s who was sleeping on the floor of a dormitory at some point and playing four matches in seven days. And, you know, the world's grown a lot. You know, when we toured to Australia and other places overseas in my time, you know, getting on a flight, you did your best to get the best seat, but there wasn't much money flying around. When you move a horse from hemisphere to hemisphere, how does that, how does that impact or what are you going to do? Is it. I think people are fascinated. You know, you. The Melbourne cup, you get horses coming from other hemispheres. I know, but do they have to come and quarantine or. They've got to. Is there a kind of jet thing equivalent in horses?
[00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah, there is quarantine. So that, that's one of the big things with horses from the northern hemisphere to the southern hemisphere, different when we travel, we can travel between the countries and just go home to our house or to our hotels. But the horses, due to the requirements when you come into Australia, they have to quarantine. So they've got a quarantine over in England, then they've got a quarantine when they come out here to Australia as well before they can get let out into the horse public, I guess you might call it. So there's a bit of rigmarole involved. The flights pretty atypical of what the people do. Go to Dubai, then from Dubai, you know, shorty, sort of stop there, then, then over to Australia. So it's a big trip. It takes quite a lot out of the animal. But the quarantine process on either end is what probably drags things out that little bit longer.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: That's fascinating. I think the, the. I look at the fantastic record you've got as a trainer, obviously that's about bringing out the best of the horse. But I also wanted to, unlike perhaps other sports where you got an individual and you've got to, you know, within the context of a team, try and get them to perform their best, you've got that slightly separate issue of an animal and a human with the jockey. And how, how do you rate the importance of the jockey? I mean I, I extracted a couple of names. Jim Byrne, Ryan Maloney, who seemed to have the sort of at the top of various charts. I could have got that wrong. But how important is the individual riding the horse for you in terms of the training process?
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Yeah, very important. You know, I liken that to a team, a team environment. You know, your jockey is, is a very, very important, you know, cog in your team really. I mean, guess we're like sort of coaches and the jockey, they're there to extract the best out on game day where it matters. So that horse rider combination, vitally important.
Having that rider that's, that's in the same mindset as you and your team to, to get the job done and then having them obviously gel with the animal is, it's a, it's the final piece of the puzzle, so to speak. And it's a piece that if you get it wrong, the whole process can be wrong. So it's really important.
Fortunate. The season that just finished here, two young ladies that ride for me, Angela Jones and Emily Lang, took out both the premierships here in Brisbane. For the first time in history. Angela was the first lady to ever win a senior jockeys premiership in our state. So they both ride for me every week but basically they still call me their boss 1 I still am apprentice wise and she won the young lady won the apprentices premiership and they run first and second. So that that whole team environment with your jockeys and your horse and why you all work together is without that all working in cohesion, you just don't get the winners and how.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: I'm delighted to hear that. And I mean the gosh, women's sport is such a theme at the moment with the rugby women's World cup going on in England at the moment and the, the women's Euros lionesses won that and it's, it's a huge growth area women's sport right now. Cricket as well with the 100 Australian women's cricket is super strong. So how do you make the selections?
Do you just study the form of the jockey or do you find that that's the type of temperament the jockey has that will get on best with the horse that you know pretty well. But what's the selection process?
[00:13:43] Speaker A: So here in Brisbane we work with about four sort of riders basically that ride for us most of the time. So some of it comes down to weight.
They work in here at Traff, work with us, you know, behind the scenes as well. And I just try and match up the rider and horses I think will suit best. Like riders are not too dissimilar to horses that have their own strengths and weaknesses. So I try and combine the, the strengths together. You know, I think you get two good strengths go together and you get it, you get a really good positive. I don't try and you know, put a weakness with a strength and I think that works too well. So just try and get the, the pair that I think will gel the best and then watch it under race conditions and I'm happy to swap things around if I, if I have to. It's just trying to get the right, the right combinations and very fortunate. I have four really good jockeys, four or five that ride for me week in week out here in Queensland and I'm able to, you know, put them on the horses I think are going to work at the time and it's working very well.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: And are they part of your. Do you have to contract them? I mean it's a bit technical here but just so everyone understands how the, the process works that that you contract them to ride certain number of times for a certain horse. I guess they've got to get to know each other, haven't they?
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I Don't, we don't have contracts for them, but that's very much in the northern hemisphere. A lot of over there where you guys are, a lot of the big owners have riders that ride for them on contract. So they'll ride for the, the big ownership group. No matter who's sort of training their horses down here for us. Where I am, they just ride for me.
I don't have to have them on contract. They just, they know they're going to get on fast horses week in, week out. So they're going to make their money riding winners through prize money, et cetera.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: And another thing for the, for people who don't necessarily on the inside of the industry, the value chain in all of this. So you've got prize money, you've got the value of the horse and then you've got the infrastructure behind you as the trainer, then you've got the jockey, et cetera. So is that all part of a connected supply or value chain that is common to the industry or how does that all work?
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it is.
I mean, I think there's different ways you can look at it with the horse. I mean, the horse you can look at as a commodity. So you spoke about finance at the start of this podcast. You look at the horse as a commodity. His value can go up and down based on the decisions we make and the races we run him. And if he's a culture and he can win a group 1, his value can go up. Now, he doesn't necessarily have to win the absolute most amount of prize money. BFP wins the right races, his value can soar. It's the same with a female horse. But then if you've got a gelding, which is really only prize money orientated, his value will only be on sale value.
It's about winning the most amount of prize money. And prize money, I guess is the lifeblood of the industry to a degree. It puts money back in the owner's pockets, then they can pay onto the training fees, et cetera, et cetera. So it's a two part situation really. The value of the horse and also chasing prize money.
They can work together, but they can also work separately depending on what the horse is, if he's a cult, a gelding or a filly or mare.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: And slightly more light heartedly what we haven't covered. And sometimes like most amateurs, you kind of select a horse for a race depending on its, perhaps its form, perhaps jockey, you know, but even the name, and I was recalling Harrison Ford when I saw a couple of the names that really did well for you, the Temple of Boom, which I kind of feel someone has to have been watching Harrison Ford and the Spirit of Boom. I mean those two really cemented.
They were a big part of the journey you've been on, were they not?
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Oh yeah, they're the real sliding doors moment of my career.
I'll remember the day Templar Boom was named vividly.
We were getting him paid for and we had to get him into a race so we had to get his name in. And I remember one of the owners, he sent through a list full of names. I think he only had 5 or 10% in him but I had to get this horse named and this Temple of Boom was one of these names. I put it on the list. I didn't think it would get in. I had these other ones ahead of it because you got to put in so many names and then some don't get selected and some do when you hand into the registrar. I'll never forget when the name come back. The guy who owned probably most of the horse was an elderly gentleman called Colin McAlpine at the time and he, I remember he rang me, he said, what's this Temple of Boom? I've never heard of a Temple of Boom.
And he was, he was horrified at the name of this horse. But he come out and he won $100,000 race his first, first day at the races and then he ended up being my first Group 1 winner a few seasons later. So the names always sound better when they're winning. It doesn't matter what they're called.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: That's a great story. And is it, is it the case that, you know, the connected. Obviously that there's some famous horses and then the, the follow on horses when they, they go to stud and you know, the son of the daughter, does that, is that follow? Does it always the case that it runs in the blood, shall we say? And you're going to get a similar performance from the descendants of those top horses.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Or that's sometimes.
Well, I don't know, sometimes it's the best idea we get when we're trying to buy them. We look at pedigrees and all that sort of stuff. But I mean, I guess if the best horse in the world, you know, had a foal out of the best mare in the world, then the richest guys in the world would only always own the best horses. And we know that's not how it works. So it's racing still a game of chance. I know, I know. We've had champions down here in Australia. They've done all sorts of DNA testing and all sorts of bunch of testing on them to try and work out why that horse was a champion and why it was superior to the next one. And thank God there's still no sooner to solving the, the Rubik's Cube of what it is to. To breed or buy that ultimate horse, because if they did, I guess then, then all the wealthiest people in the world would own all the best horses and, and the average battler wouldn't get a chance. And that's what makes our grand, our game great, is that the guy can go and buy his $5,000 horse and knock off the horse that's supposed to be worth a million because his pedigree is so good.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: I love that, I love that analogy because that goes to the heart of sport, isn't it? The, you know. Yeah, a little can knock over a big un and you know, jeopardy and surprise and you know, performance on the day is what sets sport apart from many other things, but also provides central links to the business world where, you know, if you get out there and you operate with skill and passion and intensity, you can get results. And that for me stands out long. May that continue, Tony, is all I'm going to say. And talking about horse racing, horse racing as industry and the racehorse, you know, we talk in sport about life after sport and obviously over in the uk, I'm sure some in Australia as well, injured Jockeys foundation and such like, when a racehorse retires, what happens? I know you're involved in some of the welfare programs around it. What actually goes on to look after these horses? They don't just go to stud, do they? What happens if they just retire? How do you actually look after them?
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's a very good question because it's probably the greatest challenge that our sport faces, I think. So, you know, to keep on being accepted, an accepted member of society, our sport, we need to, we need to keep going to society expectations, which is to look after these athletes when they finish. So, you know, it depends on what they are. Often the female, some of the females will go off to be broodmares, to be mothers. The colts, which we spoke of, can go off to be stallions, but there's a vast lot of other horses then that can't. So some of these go to race in easier jurisdictions and then you get the ones that you retire and they go into the equestrian world. So you work out what disciplines they're suited for, whether it be eventing, which is all the disciplines, dressage, cross country, show jumping, or they're straight show jumpers, or they're just show horses, or they're just companion horses, just pony horses, you know.
You know, some horses go out to thin places like riding for the disabled that, you know, give people light at the end of their day. They have contact with a horse because, you know, there's something with that, that animal contact, particularly with the thoroughbred or the horse, that can really help people out, a tough time. So the horse is so useful.
I feel as a trainer, we only have him for a small portion of his journey. You know, he'll live to be 20 odd years of age.
I only have him probably for five or six, sometimes seven. So we're only, we're only there at the beginning and it's our job then to shift them on to the next part of their life, whatever that takes. So we try and identify what we try and do at our stable, identify what we think, what discipline we think they could go to. Then we try and find, you know, as close to the next forever home for them as what we can get.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Well, I think that is incredibly important and great to hear as well, because a lot of us don't know. You see a horse winning and they fall out of the limelight and then you don't really know what happens to them. So it's great to hear those initiatives going on. And that kind of brings me to the bigger topic about the whole team surrounding the operation of something like this, which is quite complicated. I mean, do you have specific initiatives to develop the team? Because you've got the, you've got, not just yourself, the trainer and you've got the horse itself, you've got the jockey, all the support crew, the stables, the owner, who presume is putting under huge pressure to get results and that whole infrastructure, ecosystem, how do you bring all that together to get a successful outcome? Is there a particular technique or do you have to work hard at it to generate some of that unity?
[00:23:41] Speaker A: I liken it to sport. Obviously you played a lot of sport. I liken running a big team to being part of a team, like a sporting team. I think it's important that we all know our roles within the team. They're all quite clear. And it's also important that we all work together. We all work together for a common outcome. So that's what I try and drum into our crew. So we have a senior team, then we branch down like a pyramid type situation and, and the owners, they're entrusting us with Their animals. So it's our job to look after them. They're very much like the, you know, the guys, the sponsors and the big owners and the people that put the money into the sporting clubs. It's not much different really. So I try and work at it more like that, like a team, team aspect. Everyone's in their position or has their position, has their role to play, their process, I guess with, within the big cog of the organization. So it's, it's no dissimilar, it's not too dissimilar to a sporting team or, or a very well run business, et cetera, et cetera. I think just having people to understand what the expectations of them are and obviously to work together in a team for the common goal, which is to do our best job with these horses on race day.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: And thank you for that. And that kind of takes me onto the, you know, we talk about doing the best on race day and what your ambitions are. You obviously noticed you had a great start for the season.
Is it all about getting another top premiership? You know, maximum number of winners?
What's the longer term objective? Is there something that's really eating you up as something you haven't achieved yet that you want to go and achieve? You know, where does that sit with you?
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah, the stacks.
We've won the last 12 premierships here in Queensland. At the end of each season, I tend to, to want to look at what we've done well and what we haven't done so well, obviously improve upon the things that we probably could have done better and then obviously continue to work on the strengths within our business.
For me, I'd love to win more races at the elite level.
To do that I've got to try and keep on attracting elite horses to be able to train and develop into, into more elite horses to win more group ones. So the pinnacle racing in Australia, we'd like to have a presence at every carnival, Sydney, Melbourne and obviously our own carnivals back here in Brisbane. So there's some things we'd like to do. We also want to service our clients better. You know, people entrusted with an awful amount of money for racehorses. We want to try and continue to improve our services, improve our networking amongst our clients, make it a real community within our stable. So there's a few things we like to do. Obviously churning out the winners week to week happens because our processes behind the scenes are very good week in, week out. If we're looking after the horse as well, you know, doing the basics right, what we feel are right. We're going to train winners week in, week out. But the number one thing for me is to try and win more races at the elite level and attract that clientele to support that dream.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: And I'm not going to try and sort of open you up on any sort of tips, because we're always after tips. But the.
Have you got a particularly great group of developing horses right now? Are there one or two you've got your eye on the next Temple of Boom or the next Spirit of Boom?
Any couple of names that you think have got real potential?
[00:26:58] Speaker A: I think at the moment I trained the. Probably the best horse I've ever trained horse called Antino. He won a Doom and Carp. He's a Queenland Horse of the Year last year. Hopefully he'll win it again when our awards come up in a month's time. But he. He's in Melbourne at the moment. He's about to kick off a journey towards the Cox Plate, which is our biggest weight for age race at 2000 meters down here in Australia. So he kicks his journey off this weekend in Melbourne. I think he pays to follow throughout the spring. He races against a champion on that journey called Via Sistina, who come from racing in the Northern hemisphere down here to one of our trainers. She's obviously very good, but I think there's a horse to follow I've taken down to Melbourne. I've had him for a bit over a year, a year and a little bit now, a horse called Zorastro. He'll campaign in Melbourne this spring as well, and he runs this week at Caulfield in the Heath. If weather. If the weather's kind enough for us over the next few days in Melbourne, I think he's a horse we can follow. Follow through the spring horse calls Orastro but as Rastro and Antino, they're probably leading the charge for the stable at the moment down in enemy territory in Victoria.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Well, listen, we'll. We'll. In months to come, we'll probably circle back and to see how they've been getting on. I'll probably put a few. A few bucks on one or two of those. And if you're an aspiring. If you're listening to this and you're an aspiring jockey, how. How light do you have to be, or should I say how heavy can you afford to be to still be a jockey? Is there a. Is there a kind of a. Because I know that you put weight on the horses and all that sort of thing, but is there something where beyond which you say, no, no, forget it, you're way too heavy. That's never going to work, is it? Is there a range?
[00:28:34] Speaker A: I think the guys that ride, you know, above the 56, 57 mark, there are opportunities for them, but they've got to be very elite. They're the higher weighted horses in their handicap. So I mean, if you can ride at that 54 kilo mark, that lighter weight, you get a lot more opportunity. But historically, history tells us at the moment, most of our elite riders ride around the, around the 56 mark or above. But if you can get down to 54, you get a lot of opportunity. And with, with opportunity gives you success.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: Well, I think that probably rules that every single rugby player has ever pulled on a shirt unless we went on some sort of crash diet. But it's. Yeah, I mean, obviously I anticipated that kind of answer, but. So anyone above 55kg, you can pretty much forget it. But that's okay.
Games are for all shapes and sizes, like we know, so.
But look, I, you know, congratulate you on a wonderful career and I know there's a lot more to come and thank you for giving us such an insight into the backdrop behind the industry because a lot of people go horse racing but they don't necessarily fully dig into what's behind it, how much work goes into making that success. So I wish you all the best for the rest of the season.
Let's hope some of those horses come in, but even if they don't, it'll be fun watching them and anticipating. Because that's half of it, isn't it? That the lead up and the build up to these big races is the atmosphere that we all crave and love in the sporting environment. That pressure can they deliver on the day and ultimately you've, you've done that over a long period of time. So congratulations on that and we'll, we'll catch up with you again in the months to come to see how those, those tips have been performing.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: Tony, it doesn't feel like much pressure on me now at all, so I hope they come good for me in the spring. But yeah, no, I agree, mate. It's all about the journey, isn't it? I mean, we all want to get to our grand finals and kick those big goals, but if we're not enjoying the journey along the way, what is the point of being there in the end? So that's what I think. Horse racing offers that as much as any other sport does. Thank you very much for having me on tonight here in Australia this morning for you guys over there.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Thanks, Tony. Much appreciated. And that's it from Hallet's playbook this week. We'll see you again soon. Goodbye.
