Episode Transcript
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Well, good morning everybody. Simon Halliday here. Welcome to Haller's Playbook.
Another edition in this endless summer, this endless year of sport where for those who tuned into the Ryder cup, what drama and perhaps what gamesmanship as well. That's perhaps something to talk about.
Also the, the Red rose has carried off the. The Rugby World cup from Allianz Twickenham perhaps expected, but even so, a real watershed and tipping point for the women's game worldwide and women's sport you would say worldwide. And of course the denouement of the rugby championship which has been super exciting this year.
Incredibly competitive, full of great rugby.
And to that point my guest who's actually ironically in London because the Springboks are playing Argentina there, Matt Pearce, welcome. But before I give you an introduction, I'd just like to say thank you to Mass Group for sponsoring this podcast. Mass Group, who operate in deep liquidity with foreign exchange, gold products, digital assets and funds strategy, one of the fastest growing companies in the UK right now. Thank you to Mass for sponsoring this podcast.
So in welcoming my guest, Matt Pierce, who some people would say more than some would say is the voice of rugby, very much having been anchored through supersport South African rugby for many, many years. More than 150 or so broadcasts and counting. So it's more than that now.
Got going in this world in his twenties cause I've obviously checked him out online as you can do these days, but also is involved in the financial markets through Skybound Capital.
Was the anchor for 2011 World Cup 15 World cup saw the Springboks through the back to back World Cups in 2019 and 23 and of course they're now going for title number three. Not if England can help it obviously. So Matt, welcome from a rainy London.
Great to see you and thank you for being on the show.
Please just tell us what it's like in the Springbok camp at the moment because obviously the championship is for them to win, is that right?
[00:02:29] Speaker B: I think absolutely. There's an edge in the squad certainly.
And that's been a theme throughout the preparation week. It's been a short preparation week for the Springboks because they only arrived into London on Monday morning.
They've been staying at the Lindsbury in Teddington where I am now. What a facility that is. I think since the Springboks stayed here in 2015 ahead of their World cup game against the USA at the Olympic Stadium, it's been their preferred base when in London because it just makes everything so simple with two full size Training fields on the property, fully equipped gym, all the catering facilities you need. You don't have to get on a.
As a professional sports team and we, we all know, you know how time on a bus is, is not particularly enjoyable. So everything is on their doorstep on the banks of the River Thames. It's, it's just beautiful here. But it has been a short training week so they got here on Monday.
But the Lindsay had been used as a base for the Women's Rugby World cup which you mentioned in your intro and in fact the England team were staying here and only checked out on the Monday.
There was a real buzz around the place when we arrived in the early hours of Monday morning but there was a massive turnaround that the hotel had to do. So just the two field sessions Tuesday and Wednesday. For the Springboks, Thursday is always their day off and I think that was probably the biggest factor in the selection that they made just the one change in the starting lineup. With Ox and Chair returning to start at loose head. He, he would have started last week in Durban had he not picked up a niggle.
That would have only been two changes.
From Wellington to Durban it became three and now there's just one from, from Durban to London there's three on the bench. Bongu Manami coming back and also Grant Williams and Jesse Creel. So three experienced World cup winning Springboks coming back onto the bench as well.
And Oxon Chair has been one of the standout players. So you could argue if anything it's a slightly stronger 23 than they fielded last week. But the game circumstances are just completely different. You know, packed stadium in Durban. They knew that if they got a bonus point win they would take control of the rugby championship log because the All Blacks hadn't secured a bonus point in the morning or South African time anyway. And so it became an opportunity to put their destiny in their own hands. They delivered with summer prom, particularly in that second half.
But this has a different feel to it. A it's pouring with rain in London today. It is due to stop before an early kickoff time tomorrow of 2pm but it will be slightly soggy underfoot I suspect. So different cond but also for some of these Springbok players, the biggest game of their lives. You know, they haven't played in a Springbok jersey with a trophy on the line. And central to that discussion is Sasha Feinberg and Gomezulu who was just otherworldly in Durban last weekend. But Rassie Erasmus has been quick to say this week, you know, backing up A performance like that as a 23 year old is hard.
And he was tempted, he said it in open forum in his media conference when he announced the team. He was sorely tempted to play Andre Pollard this weekend because he's been there in finals. You know, they in all likelihood they only need to win this game. It would take a ridiculous performance in bled as though too from the All Blacks to, to get on to 19 points and build their points difference. I suppose nothing's impossible but in all likelihood the Boks need to win this game and they'll win back to back rugby championships for the first time in their history. So there was that with an eye on the weather as well. There was that temptation to go to tried and tested and a little more conservative. But ultimately with the two training sessions he said, right, let's go with minimal changes and let's give this young prodigy the opportunity to back up a performance and see how he handles that pressure.
Because there is pressure when you've produced a performance that good to see if you can do it again and perhaps not try too hard to do it again. Because individual performances like that sometimes come around once every couple of years.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: Well, that's right. And I think you take a little step back and when depending on what people felt about Rastio Rasmus selection policies and a big squad he was rotating and obviously Australia turned up and gave the Springboks a bit of a shock.
I put in Pretoria and people started questioning. I mean staff supporters always do because they're very demanding. And so then a slightly an unconvincing performance down in Cape Town. But suddenly when nobody much wins at Eden park, sadly someone will someday and then it will turn around. So part of a grand plan it feels.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think it is suddenly and I think that's the important point to make. I think you're right. I think sometimes South African fans are a little impatient. I don't think they've been as impatient with Rassie as they have with some coaches in the past. I mean one of my favorite statistics involving the Rassie Erasmus stroke Jacques Nienaber coaching era is that when they came back into the setup in 2018, the box played 14 test matches that year and very few people would remember that they won seven and lost seven. They had a 50% win record in year one and the one game in that year which saved their hide, so to speak, was defeating the All Blacks in Wellington by 36 points to 34 when quite a few things went their way. Bounces of the Ball missed kicks by the All Blacks. Doesn't matter.
Final score was 36, 34. One year to the day after being defeated 57 nil at North Harbor. And that one performance gave everybody, including the coaching staff, the players, the media, the fans, it gave them that belief that if they could do that, there's nothing they couldn't achieve and they needed to add layers of consistency. And I think we're seeing a similar picture post rugby World Cup. In 2023, you've won back to back world cups. What do you do? You play 13 test matches in 2024, you win 11, you lose two. Both of those by a solitary point to Ireland and Argentina.
And in so doing you use 50 players across 13 test matches heading into this rugby championship. In the tests against Italy and Georgia, they'd already used 47 players going into the rugby champs.
So you can also take a look at the list of players who are not available this weekend. Just as an example. I'm not going to name them all, but the likes of a of France Malher, Cameron Hun, Elrich, Lowe.
You know, you can go on and talk about Kurt L.
Players who aren't available for this weekend, haven't even traveled and all of a sudden you get a picture of an incredibly diverse and deep squad that has that depth across all positions.
You know, if you look at Siya Kolisi and how he's played this rugby championship, it was only in the last two rounds that he got to play in his number six jersey. He played two tests at number eight. He doesn't play number eight like Jasper Wisa can by his own admission.
And all of a sudden you've got Kolisi, Visa and Duttoy back as a back row combination and the box became more dominant. So it's not suddenly. That's my point.
It's by design.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: It's a scary prospect. I think we'll send this note to sort of bring all that together. We'll send it off to all the other nations and say, you know, how does your depth look at the moment? But I think you mentioned the red roses and the dominance not just of their, their first team, but their whole squad. And you. There were people saying, look, they could pick their second team and they might well have squeezed the World cup also.
You might be able to say the same thing about the Springboks. It's a, it's, it's for other teams to, to make up the difference, I suspect. But I just want to take a little step back, Matt, because obviously I mentioned at the top that you. You've done more than 150 broadcast games for the Springboks. Obviously this goes back in time. I think it was in your 20s when you first got involved. What is it? As someone who is so experienced in this game now, what is it that got you thinking? I want to be a broadcaster.
And where does that opportunity come from? If you are somebody trying to build into that role? You know, what happened for you? Did it just come in, you go, knock on the door, or what? How does it work?
[00:12:25] Speaker B: No, it's a pretty extraordinary story.
There was literally nothing that made me think I want to be a broadcaster until I did it for the first time. And that was entirely by accident.
So if you think there's a science to it, think again. No, I was at university in Cape Town, teens and early twenties, and a friend of mine back then was doing some freelance work for one of the local newspapers covering club rugby and club cricket. Simple as that. Couple of paragraphs dictated to a copy typist.
That was in the days where the newspapers covered club sport, and at the transition between the end of the cricket season and the start of the rugby season, they didn't have enough freelancers to cover both the rugby and the cricket, because there was some rugby and cricket on the same day.
And for a reason still unknown to me completely. This friend of mine who was doing the job said to the sports editor, oh, well, I've got a friend, Matt, yeah, I'm sure he'd like to do something like this. Earned a couple of rand, which bought a couple of beers, even a beer. But it was something and I quite enjoyed it. And I started writing more and more.
Found I had not a passion for it even at that point, but I had an ability to do it.
And at the time, I was a pretty decent golfer. I was playing in most of the local tournaments and playing Premier League golf in Cape Town.
And the newspaper that I was freelancing for had a golf writer at the time, and he resigned. And the sports editor said, why don't you take over the golf beat? Said, okay. So I started writing about golf. And in 1991, the year in which I turned 21, there was a big professional tournament at Mowbray Golf Club in Cape Town called the Bells cup, which was won by Vijay Singh, right at the front end of his career, funnily enough. And I was sent along as a. As a university student, but as a correspondent to cover this tournament.
And there were no cell phones or anything, and there was a call to the press room at the golf club and the media manager said, he's the Cape Times correspondent here.
Yeah, that's me.
And it was a radio station in Johannesburg saying we always use for Cape Town events, we use the local correspondent to do our reports every half an hour on a Saturday afternoon, just updating our listeners on various sports events around the country. Would you be able to do that? Yeah, of course I can.
And dutifully, you know, scripted every sort of 32nd, 62nd report, half an hour, every half hour on the half hour and did those updates and. And somebody from the national broadcaster was. Happened to be listening in his car in Johannesburg and got in touch and said, would you like to do some work for us? And started doing some freelance reporting for the SABC on the radio. And then the week before my 22nd birthday, they phoned up and said, look, there's a rugby game at Newlands Western Province against Natal on Saturday.
And our regular commentator, who was a high court judge, by the way, commentary on the side, he was not available because he had a family wedding. And they said, could you do 80 minutes of rugby commentary live on Saturday? I was 21. I said, of course I can, no problem.
And I pitched up with literally no history, no experience, just a lot of chutzpah and put a pair of earphones on and took a cue from the director in the studio who said, you know, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Q.
That was it, that was the start. And I think in a moment like that, you're too naive to think that you can actually stuff it up. And off I went. And I do think there's part of me that's always believed that 80% of it has got to be within you. You've got to have that ability to just run with it.
And then there are little nuances that you can learn over time.
And yeah, and that radio career just carried on, always as a freelancer.
And then I got the opportunity to do some television work for a new station that was launching in South Africa with a great friend of mine, Neil Manthor.
They got the rights to an ICC cricket tournament, but they couldn't use any of the super sports or that the SABC presenters. And we got the opportunity to do that. And that was my first introduction to television. And I won't bore you with all the details, but really felt that I could offer something in television. And then in 2005, got my first opportunity after years of knocking on the door, never gave up on the dream.
And then a first Test in 2006 got a couple that year, a couple in 2007, and from 2008 to the back end of that year, really started touring quite regularly with the Springboks. And it's. Yeah, it's just been such a privilege, honestly, I can remember every single one of them. And to have been part of this generation, you know, with the back to back World cup wins and so many significant milestones on the Springbok journey contained within these last six, seven years has just been very, very special.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Totally special. I think the, and for those listening in, you know, the mess being, doesn't matter where you come from, if you care enough about it and you say you might have something within you that wanted to do it, but you know, you can get to these places. It's not, it's. These things are not inaccessible. And that's the wonderful thing about that story. But do you, do you end up being a student of other broadcasters? I mean, obviously that was when you kicked off, that Bill McLaren was in his pomp at that stage. So do you study, did you study the best in the business? Do you get calls from people going, how's it going, Matt? You know, kind of get that piece of advice, or is there a collective of broadcasters? You know, so what the collective noun is, you know what I mean?
[00:18:55] Speaker B: I think you always take note of what you believe is of good quality. I, I don't think it's a good idea to try and copy.
I think you need to develop your, your own style. But, you know, McLaren was just so wonderful to listen to and, and a lot of that was down to vocal quality and some of his metaphors, it just, they brought a smile to your face, didn't they?
I remember one involving Jonah Lomu before he played in the 1995 Rugby World Cup. He had burst onto the scene at the Hong Kong Sevens where he literally ran over anyone in his path. And they were playing one of the minnow teams, it may have been Hong Kong or somebody. And Lomu got the ball with one defender to beat and the width of the field to use.
And of course, he didn't go left, he didn't go right. He went straight over the defender and calmly dotted the ball down under the posts. And McLaren just said, and there goes Jonah Lomu with the big Maori sidestep. And Lomu proving once and for all that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
And I just, I just that how good, how good is that? And to come up with that.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: In.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: The pressure of a broadcast was very special. But I Heard some wonderful stories about Bill McLaren, a friend of mine from Cape Town who played reasonable level provincial rugby, but he played club rugby for Villages, one of the oldest clubs in South Africa, and that they went, they sent a team to the Melrose Sevens.
And this friend of mine was the captain of the Villagers Sevens team. And he tells a story about training in sheeting rain ahead of the Melrose Sevens. And there was this solitary figure on the side of the field in a Macintosh with a hood over it and Wellington boots. And it was Paul McLaren, you know, trying to pick out discernible features within this South African club Sevens team that he was going to commentate on at the Melrose Sevens that weekend. So there are lessons, so many lessons. Yeah, yeah. Attention to detail and hard work. You know, I, I say to people all the time, every single test match by its very definition is different.
Every player on whom I made my notes last week, who's playing this week, their statistics are by definition different. So you start from zero again and I think one of the great notes.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: You'Ve got the bits of, you've got the notes you do, you'll be all showing off.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: And I often say, Simon, that people always comment on my notes and how chaotic they may seem and all the different colors and so on. They're not chaotic at all. They make complete sense to me.
But I also say to people that they might look overwhelming, but I probably use 10 or a maximum of 15% of that information in a game. I just need to know that it's there and I need to have condensed it into an A4 sized piece of paper because in most commentary boxes wherever I am in the world, that is the space available, maybe an A3, but I need another sheet for recording the scorers and the time and the order in which points were scored.
So you have to condense it down and it has to be in a format that you can easily access and you've got to know it's there. But also just the simple process of writing it down sort of embed certain things in your head and just naturally makes you better prepared. But preparation is key.
You can't go and wing it.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: I love that in the world of online and digital assets and social media and the good old fashioned pen and paper is still something that is really important, and I love that.
And just moving on slightly, some people think, and whether it be for a rugby player or people around the rugby world, that once the kind of the rugby finishes, you go and put your feet up somewhere or you go back and See the family, of course, you do all of that, but you have another important piece to you, which is skybound capital. And so how do you just.
You're in the world of finance and that's a conscious decision alongside the rugby.
And so how does that work in your world? I mean, how do you mix all of that up, as it were?
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Look, it's a fabulous question and there are many good answers to it. I'll try and stick to one or two. Firstly, just to reassure anybody who knows me who might be listening into this or watching, yes, I'm in the financial services world, but rest assured, they do not let me anywhere near the money.
I'm purely in the business, in a. In a business development role. I've been with the company for 15 years and I think the way that I joined the company best explains how it all fits together. You know, the now CEO of the company I've known for almost my whole life. I was actually at nursery school with him.
And when he became a part of this business, he had been a part of a previous business with our founder.
And I said to him, look, is there anything that. I had recently started touring with the Springboks and I felt that to get the balance with family and so on, I needed to have something which wasn't a sort of conventional 8:30 to 5:00pm because I was needing to be away at weekends and sometimes on tours. And so I needed to do something in addition to my broadcasting that was a little bit more flexible.
And I asked the now CEO was there any opportunity with their newly formed business? And he said, well, he'll introduce me to the chairman and let's see.
And I met the chairman and he said to me, well, look, we do a few client facing events. Why don't you come along and talk to our clients, you know, when we have a lunch or a presentation about your experiences of touring with the Springboks?
And we did three of those and after the third one, he came to me and he said, you know, it's occurred to me that at every event that we've done with you, you have something that none of us have in our business. And I said, what's that? He said, people want to talk to you.
They're not threatened by your subject matter. They don't see you as a financial services guy necessarily. They see you as a rugby guy. And they love the Springboks and they love your anecdotes and they're not threatened and they gravitate towards you because of your subject matter.
And he Said that's an incredibly powerful tool in our business because it creates connection.
And much later in my career I came across a performance coach. He's coached the Aiki Tigers in the Varsity cup in South Africa, a chap called Tom Dawson Squibb who's worked with a number of high performance professional sports environments. And he came and did a seminar for some of our staff and he came up with this incredibly powerful three word statement which I realized I've run my business life based on these three words my whole career without actually knowing it. And that the statement is simply connection before content.
And the chairman saw in me an ability to make connections.
And once the connection was made and you found out a little bit more about a potential client or a potential allocator or counterparty within the business, you could then move on to the content. But that, that initial connection is really key.
And so on that basis he said, why don't you come and join us? And I said to do what? He said, I have absolutely no idea, but we'll figure it out as we go along.
And yeah, I've been with the business for 15 years now and we've morphed over that time. We've, we've responded to market conditions. When I joined the business, it was a, essentially a fund of hedge funds business and we've moved into the private market space. So private credit, trade and commodity finance, invoice financing, so very much in the, in the sort of yield space and alternatives and private markets have become a really interesting space to be in, especially since 2022. And I would dare say that a lot of the connections I've made for the business had originated somewhere through sport. And sport is an incredibly powerful connector because there are so many commercial entities and sponsors and so on involved in sport.
So inevitably you meet people from the commercial space who overlap with the sport that you're working in.
And it's the ability to make that connection, find a good reason to go back, to revisit and to connect in a different way outside of the sporting environment. But always acknowledging that sport was the initial creator of that connection, I think.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: That'S an encouragement, good way to look at it. And obviously it speaks to a huge trend in the rugby world, and not just rugby, but let's do with the rugby world in terms of commercialization and monetization as well.
And when we talked about the red roses and the World cup winning teams and the World cup as a whole, that's their biggest challenge, I suspect, because ultimately many as people talked about Canada Crowdfunding their way across to even get the tournament, whereas the Red Roses are in a very different place.
Put that in context for what for me was not so much the surprise package of the tournament, but I woke up to the tournament when South Africa beat Italy and then were 10 all with the Black Ferns deep into the match.
And this is a squad that's come together from all different walks of life and now has that challenge. How do you being on the inside so much? How does the world see. Well, how does South Africa see the Springbok women?
I don't know if they're going to be called what you're going to call them at some point. Well, they get their own name. But that was one of the big advances in the Women's World Cup. Where does that go now in your mind, do you think for that our.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: Ceiling shattered in terms of the Springbok women?
I think there were some images that were so unbelievably powerful.
Cindy Boy, the captain who's now retired, our most capped Springbok woman. But what a pathway she has created. And hugging Libby Jansse Van Rensburg, two women from extraordinarily different backgrounds. And you could hear on the audio after that Italy game, Libby saying, we did it, we did it. Everything changes now. I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it. And the reality is that leading up to this World cup, there was additional funding placed into the women's game.
The Bulls daisies have now formulated a professional program and there will be more to follow.
And off the back of this particular success, the women's game will continue to grow. That this group has been an inspiration and so many powerful stories as they have been within the Springbok team. The likes of Sia's background and Makazole Mapimpi and the incredible backstories of some of these players. And you look at a player like Mary Zulu, who played for the Springbok women at the World cup, you know, who was abandoned as a baby and taken in and raised by a family. Look at her now, you know, incredibly powerful stories of inspiration and success.
And the funding will continue to come and the growth of the sport is there for all to see. You know, everybody talks about how powerful the youth Weeks are. You think about Craven Week and the Grand Como Week in South Africa.
Those Youth Week concepts are being brought through now, allowing girls school going girls to play in provincial tournaments as well.
And it's a bit of a sleeping giant, to be honest. I heard a lot of the broadcasters of this World cup saying, look at the progress of South Africa's women just in the last 18 months. You know, you mentioned the win against Italy. They a year ago, a year previously, they played Italy twice and lost both of them, the second one by a smaller margin. But that was the game they targeted at the World cup and said, if we can beat Italy, we can make a playoff for the first time. And I was actually in Wellington in the wee hours of Sunday morning having witnessed this incredible win by the Springboks. And we were back at the team hotel and there were the Springbok women playing the Black Ferns in a quarterfinal. We were absolutely captivated by it. And as you say, you know, they, they really put a lot of pressure on that Black Ferns team for a large portion of that game. And with investment comes the ability to professionalize and a keener focus on strength and conditioning, which is key.
But even that improved and swaste de brain coming in as the head coach with experience within the Springbok men's environment as well, and a hugely successful franchise coach in South Africa and the passion that he had for that team was tangible.
So the investment is there, the commitment is there, and I think there's massive growth ahead for the Springbok women.
[00:34:10] Speaker A: I think it's the. And when you see what the Springbok men have done over a period of time and bringing all of the resource of the country in, you can only see it going one way for Springbok women. And I think there should be a catalyst for, for many countries. But it seems to me disproportionately for the Springbok women. But that comes on to another point.
I do want to look forward to 27 with you for Springboks, but the most recent news which could impact significantly on the Women's game on our 360, see, you're within various camps and you hear loads of things. The view is that obviously with all the money on offer that who would particularly impact the women's game, but I suspect the men's game as well.
The big unions in denial saying this will never work because we won't release our players and all the rest. But in a game, and I know this is the next player, early on in my career I had a potentially catastrophic injury, which I recovered from. But you're only one injury away or one deselection away from having to do something else in your life.
And so that money on offer is significant if we're to believe the stories.
Do you, do you see the R360 as a serious Threat or is it just chatter or I don't know how well you know Mike T.
Different era. Mike and I played bar together. You'd never tell me because he wouldn't trust me probably with what he's going to say. But how do you just, how do you see it?
[00:35:40] Speaker B: I mean, look, I've got to be careful because nobody can really tell me enough about it.
In terms of what are the facts, how close is it to reality? We can talk about numbers and potential payments, locations, but show me the final contract says it's going to happen. I, I, I'm not disputing that it could, but until we can see how it's going to work, when it's going to happen, who are the players that are signed? It's all speculative at the moment. The one thing I will say about rugby generally, and I guess the same applies to football in many respects, is that there's a tribalism about it and a sort of ownership and a sense of belonging that I don't believe a league like this can necessarily address.
And it may do as it progresses, but initially that's quite a big hurdle to cross. I mean, who are you going to support?
If you are sitting in Cape Town and there are three South Africans in a team and two Georgians and whatever, you know, the spread of players, where do you feel you belong as a fan?
And coupled with that is this point of view that I have around superstars in rugby. I've had this conversation with friends often where we sit and chew the fat around rugby and nobody would disagree that the game's first global superstar was Jonah Lamu. You know, the game came out of 95 Rugby World cup in South Africa, turned professional in 1996. And given his impact on the World cup in 95, Lahmu was the guy, he was the, he was the face of professional rugby as it, as it turned professional. And then I say to people, who was the next one?
And you get some quizzical looks and they, they throw a couple of names out there and you say, yeah, but not really. You know, Dan Carter gets mentioned often. Was, was Dan Carter a massive figure in South Africa, for example? No. I mean, he was a respected rugby player when he played against the Green and Gold, but commercially and otherwise, he, he wasn't, I mean, the closest thing that South Africa had to a superstar figure in rugby relatively early in the professional era was Bob Skinstadt. You know, he, he, he was very attractive to commercial partners. He was well spoken, he had a great smile and, you know, he, he was out there.
But I also don't think the sport embraces individual superstars and that's why there haven't been any, really, since Lamu. Because there's this whole culture in rugby.
Sorry, Johnny Wilkinson, oh, he's massive in England, but, but, you know, he was again respected and recognized.
But was he that, that poster boy, poster man for the sport and with massive commercial value in England? I'm sure he was.
Certainly not where I come from.
And I don't think the changing room, to use a broad term, likes them. I think that there's this. I was going to say there's this culture of you are loaned the jersey, you're not entitled to anything, nothing belongs to you.
And I think that's fairly unique to rugby and it's, it's why, you know, you don't have these individual superstars in the sport. And I think something like the, the proposed R360 league, it's potentially trading on the fact that there are these massive individual superstars that are going to attract attention. I don't know. I don't know if that's going to be the case. There's a lot of unknowns, I'm afraid, from my side.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's. The economics certainly won't work. There will be no economics other than a lot of money being thrown into the scenario and whether we're all going to travel to Dubai and other places to watch these things.
More of a circus like carnival.
And of course, what Mike Tindall and others say is pushing towards more excitement.
[00:40:40] Speaker B: More.
[00:40:43] Speaker A: Changes and the day out and all the rest of it.
When people talk about the day out at the Rugby World cup final, women's, the day out that everyone's had through the tournament, it could well be that what this does is it drives our products and our people to understand how they can change for the better within the construct of the tribalism you talk about, and perish the thought our administrators might see this as well and open up to a better way of doing things. Who knows? But as you say, I just think.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: We need more information as to how it's proposed to work. How interested are broadcasters in it? I, I can't, I can't say.
Because that will be key.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. 100%. And talking of, you know, the future, that's kind of into the future, but let's, let's just perhaps close by talking about 2027 and obviously you're, you're in that position of, of, of stewarding this kind of shit that's called the Springboks towards 2027 from a ballparking perspective, how they must obviously have that in their mind's eye. That's what they're building towards.
This would be unprecedented.
There's a weight of history and there's a lot of experienced Springboks who'd love to be there.
I presume some of them won't make it because they just won't.
But they're all part of the journey. I mean, how do you see 27?
Because we're still quite a long way away from that.
We're 25 test matches away from the World Cup.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: Exactly. Now it's a great question. Rassie Rasmus spoke on the end of year tour last year when we were sitting in Wales ahead of the final Test match of 2024. And he said 2025 is going to be a year in which he's challenged to make some very important, some very hard, some very unemotional decisions around personnel.
Because as you rightly say, those who've won back to back would love to go back to back to back, be the first team ever to do that.
But the reality is they simply can't all do that.
Whether it's physically, whether it's based on form, there are some who will. And this stood out as the year, and particularly this rugby championship stood out as a block of six matches against high quality opposition. Home in a way where Rassie would put certain players to the test.
And if they are in the older, more experienced group, do they have what it takes in terms of performance and physical attribute? Given that you've got to now add another two years to their age in 2025, do they have the ability to get there and make that emotionless decision where if the answer is no, then your time is effectively up. Because as you rightly say, there's 2025 Test matches between now and the World Cup. So if you've got a younger player who's currently on a single digit number of caps, you want that player to go to the World cup with probably 20 to 25.
So they've got to play the majority of the test matches between now and the World cup to just build that, that experience and that, that knowledge becoming more instinctive within the system.
And I think we've already started to see elements of that. You know, V Laru, he got to 100 test caps, he went on tour to New Zealand, he played at Eden park, didn't play at Wellington, came back to South Africa, not named in the squad for the two Games against Argentina but called into Durban for a couple of training sessions to serve the team, but with a pretty clear message that you know, by the time 2027 comes, barring some kind of miracle, you know, your, your time is done.
And I may be wrong around that, but I don't think so.
But having said that, the selection for the end of year tour in which the, the two games that obviously stand out are France in Paris on 8th November, Ireland in Dublin on 22nd November, I suspect that those match 23s will be a pretty clear indication of what Rassie Erasmus sees as the core of his group that will go to 2027. Obviously with some not available still due to injury. I do suspect that the likes of Elric Lowe and Cameron Hanekom, possibly Franz Malheuber, depending on outcome of his surgery he might not be done. But I think the incredible positive for Rassie and his management team is the way that the less experienced players have responded when presented with the opportunities that they have been this year. The growth of a, of a Wilco Low who wasn't even included in the group for the end of year tour. Last year there was an injury just before departure, ended up starting two of those test matches with one against Scotland, one against sorry England and Wales and since then has just elevated into one of the most, if not the most destructive tight head scrimmager in the world.
And you know, the emergence of Thomas Ttoy always been there. He was a World cup winning Springbok in 2019, missed out on selection for 2023 but he starts at Twickenham tomorrow, starts his fourth or fifth consecutive game at Tai Tet and he's responded magnificently to that opportunity. Jan Henrik vessels the Boan Fento who plays his rugby at Edinburgh, who qualifies for Scotland next year. Well, not anymore because he accepted the invitation to come and play for South Africa.
Marness Van Amer who had a standout season for the Scarlets in the URC, having previously played for the Cheetahs, got an opportunity in a Springbok jersey. So with, with injury and unavailability has come opportunity. And I don't think you can say of any player who's been brought into the group this year that they have let the side down and they've shown enormous capacity for, for growth and, and that aim that Rassie's always had of, of having, you know, three in every position, all capable of playing in the starting role if required to do so, I think that's unfolding right in Front of our eyes. And it's very much planned and by design.
[00:47:58] Speaker A: I feel it's, as I said at the top of the show, it's a frightening prospect if you're trying to compete with that. But, I mean, you talk to bathrobby supporters and Thomas Dutoy probably is the number one name on the sheet. Even. I'm for Finn Russell. Even and Wilco Low. Looks. Looks. A possible version of Thomas Dutoy, but.
So listen, we're out of time.
I was just gonna ask if there's one favorite broadcasting memory of yours that doesn't have to be, of course, but moment in time that you'll always remember that you've got your head in your hands thinking, why did I say that? Or because obviously you're in that moment, that pressure. What do I say now? You know, what is the. They think it's all over. It is now we'll go down history, obviously, 1966 World Cup. But is there a favorite broadcasting moment in all these years that you remember?
Could be highly emotional, could be tongue in cheek, could be anything.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: Yeah, look, there've been plenty and it is hard to single out one. I've been asked this many times, so I always give the same answer. If I'm forced to give one out of many, it would have to be the 2019 final in Yokohama Stadium for so many reasons. You know, the fact that it was Sia, as the first black African to captain the Springboks, lifting the trophy. The fact that two tries, the only two tries scored in rugby World cup finals by the box was scored in that game by Makazola Mapimpi and by Cheslin Golby Mapimpi from the most hopeless of circumstances rising through to become a World cup winning Springbok and scoring the final. Chesden Colby, who was told by multiple coaches that, you know, he was simply too small to be able to compete at the highest level. And him scoring what became the match winning try, Siya lifting the trophy. The fact that, that that team had come from number six and seven in the world less than 18 months out from a World cup and had come through to achieve that kind of has to stand out for, for all of those reasons, but there are many. And again, what a. What a privilege to have been in the seat that I've been in as part of this generation. They've got so much to teach us all about professionalism, about inclusivity, around genuine transformation and their attitude to their work and their selflessness and their lack of ego. I could go on. It's a very, very special group to have witnessed coming through this era.
[00:50:45] Speaker A: And I think you go for those of us and you included with long memories of what still described as the most transformational moment in sport at any time, of Nelson Mandela putting on the Springboks shirt in 1995. And actually, Springboks weren't a great rugby team going into that tournament and won it, but that it changed the nation, it changed the view of a nation. And here we are talking about the same things and also replicating into the women's team.
So it's a very exciting time for South African rugby.
I'm out here on the Cape and I feel it and I hear it, and that vibe is there every day. So, obviously, as an Englishman, knowing that if you're number six or seven in the world, you can come through and win a World cup, we'll give hope to all English rugby supporters. But in the meantime, good luck tomorrow.
It's in their hands. Springboks. I hope it stops raining.
Really appreciated your time and your perspective for saying things which really have that wonderful crossover between the real world and the sporting world where we can all dare to dream. So, Matt, for now, I'm going to say thank you. See you again soon. That's it from Hannah's playbook. See you next time.
