Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Well, hi everybody. It's Simon Halliday here and we're approaching the fourth edition of Haller's Playbook in conjunction with Mass Group Multi Asset Solutions. I'd like to thank them, first of all, a group that involves itself in key products such as Forex, gold trading, digital assets, which is in a moment where Rachel Reeves started talking about paying back the national debt with Bitcoin. There's obviously something going on, but we can debate that another time.
And also funds and fund strategies. So delighted that Masks are on board with this. And this is a podcast where sport meets business in many ways and financial trading in particular. I'm delighted to welcome Mark Roberts this week.
Mark and I have background from the point of view. We played rugby together for Bath and in fact he played for a number of other rugby clubs in Wales and England. And we worked together in finance in days of UBS when Cult of the Equity was alive and well. And obviously there's been a lot of change since then, that's for sure. I suspect some things remain the same and we can touch on some of that. And most notably in a weekend of sport where the British and Irish Lions, I don't say they had their comeuppance from the Australians, but we found out that the British and Irish lines aren't all that good and that the Australians aren't all that bad.
But at the same time, a dramatic series drawn between England and India at the Kia Oval in that phenomenal last session. And cricket is in the. Is in the center of a lot of people's thoughts right now.
And I guess Mark has background in all these areas, is currently chairman of Glamorgan Cricket Club and one of the architects of the investments that have been made in the hundred to great success and huge acclimation. So, Mark, welcome. I thought Keats could start with the announcements that have literally just come out which seem really revolutionary and fundamental to the future of the game of cricket. So welcome to the show. Tell us a bit more.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Thanks, Simon. Really good to be here.
Well, the hundred, as you say, the announcements came out last week saying that six of the deals have been completed. The remaining two franchises yet to complete. Trent and the Oval will complete in October.
So an injection of cash into the English and Welsh game of about 560 million pounds and a total value of for the 100 league from a standing start of zero five years ago of just under a billion. Obviously that pales into insignificance relative to the ipl, but I think we've got very strong hopes that the 100 league will become second only to the IPL in value and in relevance over the next three to five years as the media cycle continues. And I think, you know, given the fact that four of the teams are owned by IPL owners, you will see Indian players in the Hundred League before too long, I'm convinced of that. And that's why people were prepared, I think, to pay reasonably high prices, particularly for some of the trophy assets in London for those franchises. So, yeah, it's been a great success and I think for Glamorgan particularly, can I just mention the deal, you know, specifically we got an enterprise value of around 84.6 million.
A big evaluation, sorry, a higher valuation than Edgbaston, which is obviously a much bigger business. 3 times bigger than Glamorgan and in a city 5 times bigger than Cardiff. We're pretty pleased with that valuation and I think the USPs that Glamorgan had, the stadium, particularly the event city concept in Cardiff Sports Corridor and the Welsh brand, where we represent Wales as well as our club, I think really resonated with our investor. So we're pretty pleased that we've hooked up with Sanjay Goval and we are an owner. I mean it's a 5050 JV and we intend to grow the value in this franchise globally.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: It's fascinating stuff, I think, for a sport such as cricket to suddenly be worth hundreds of millions on paper at least. And what is it people are going to see that, you know, what's attracted the investors in? Is it to turn cricket into more an entertaining product? I mean, it doesn't get more entertaining than the last couple of days up at the oval, of course, but different in a five day cricket different. But what is it people are looking for, do you think?
[00:04:46] Speaker B: I think there's a number of things, I think just on the basic financials, when you look at media revenues for various world sports, arguably football has plateaued, having had a tremendous run in terms of media revenue value.
Cricket is growing exponentially. Okay? It's driven by India, which is responsible for 80 cents in every dollar. But cricket revenues are forecast to grow for the next 10 years. So I think that's kind of locked in.
I think the third thing that attracted investors into the UK was to get part of that heritage. You know, lords, I mean, they paid massively for the privilege of renting lords for four weeks. They don't own lords.
Ditto the oval. I think that's quite interesting, you know, that whole kind of halo effect around the Lord's brand, the heritage of English cricket, I think People wanted part of that. I think another point would be that we've seen over the last five years, six years, that sports assets have become investment grade.
And I think that's attracted into our process. And in our process, Glamorgan had 15 investors in the first round from a variety of different backgrounds, private equity, banks, individuals, celebrities. You know, there was a whole range of people interested in these assets. I think the difference with cricket, unlike some of the others, is I think you can actually make money at the operating level potentially.
Whereas I think in football and rugby, particularly where media revenues are declining, it's quite difficult to make a profit at the operating level.
I think there's a range of reasons, but I think those are the. Oh, and can I just mention one other thing before I forget it. The women's game has been turbocharged by the hundred and you know, the double header concept, which they're now rolling out at the T20 here, I think it's really accelerated the development of that game into a more of a commercial entity rather than a performance pathway. And I think the values around cricket more generally and around the women's game specifically are attractive to corporates and to investors.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: I think that's a huge point to make. And we talk only a week after the Lionesses won back to back Euro titles and we've got the Women's Rugby World cup coming up to a level of excitement that you could only imagined a while back. You know, women's sport is growing so fast around the world and as you say that the women's game in this case has been turbocharged in its growth and it's going to bring in a completely new audience or a younger audience, a more diverse audience, which can grow revenue at the operating level. I mean, it's a.
I want to bring in another point which takes us back to the sport we both know and love and have been around it perhaps for too long, but who knows?
We talk about branding and British and Irish Lions and that great brand going to Australia, they thought it would be a bit of a kind of drink a thon because Australia wouldn't turn up. Well, anyone who knows Australian sport would know that that wasn't going to happen. And actually, arguably you could say that the Lions were quite fortunate to win the series. But against that franchise, that word which has been talked about in the English game, and also the R360 franchise, where they're talking about bringing men's and women's teams into a new franchise system.
Do you, having been through the experience, you've been through Developing the value for cricket. Do you see it as transferable into rugby?
Potentially?
[00:08:32] Speaker B: I think rugby.
Well, I mean, it's a big question that. Simon, I. The R60 thing, you know, I keep on reading about it, we keep on hearing about it. I mean, nothing tangible really is out there yet.
I think if that does go ahead, despite their claims that, you know, they'll operate outside the international window and all that kind of thing, you know, ultimately, as we've seen in other sports, players follow the money and it could have really kind of consequences that we can't quite yet tell. I think if that really gets off the ground in terms of franchises, you know, to be honest, I think it works pretty well in cricket for. For a number of reasons and will continue to do so in rugby. I think there's so much heritage and history wrapped up in the shirt and the badge and the jeopardy of promotion and relegation, possibly, that the franchise system might not be as appropriate. If you look around rugby at the moment, and you may disagree with me, Simon, at the moment, but the one. The one area that seems to be doing stunningly well and attracting lots of spectator interest and good TV revenues is the French system, which is, you know, centered around towns, a badge, a history, a heritage and very high spectre spectator engagement. I think we used to have that in the UK actually, Simon, and particularly with the Anglo Welsh focus that we used to have, that was kind of jettisoned a long time ago, particularly in Wales. So that's a whole different story. But in terms of the Gallagher Premiership, you know, the talk is that they want to make it a closed league. I think given the operating disaster financially that all those clubs are in, they just lost a collective 32 million last year.
I do think a period of time where they consolidate and build around those 10 clubs that are left might be a good idea, maybe adding two, hopefully Welsh ones. You never know at some point in the future. But I have to say, to answer your question specifically, I'm not sure rugby is particularly suited to the franchise system.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: No, it's going to be fascinating because I think with the rugby World Cup 2031, I mean, let's go past Australia 2027, when I think we can see Australia going to be super competitive. There's no doubt about that. They can keep their best players on the pitch and fit 2031, the men and the women's World cup is in the usa. And of course, everyone talks about, you know, unlocking that sports marketing arena, which is worth tens of billions of dollars. And of course, many of the investors in or some of the investors in the cricket franchises are from the US and some crickets being played in the US can you see a moment when the Welsh Fire go to New York City to play a T20 game or something like that? Can you see that development going on?
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I can certainly see that happening. I mean obviously Major League Cricket in America has only been going two or three years and our investment partner Sanjay Goville owns Washington Freedom. We already have begun to start having pretty close links with Washington Freedom. Our captain at Welsh Fire this year is Steve Smith, obviously plays for Freedom as well.
I think you'll see a lot more not just with Fire and Freedom, but with these portfolio franchises that are owned by the ipl.
Players will become more and more attached to a certain group in the, in the short format game. I really do believe that. But in terms of rugby, I mean I, I noticed recently that Major league Rugby in that in North America is still struggling financially. I think another team, did I read another team just went bust or merged and you know, North America is the graveyard of hope for new sports concepts. Seems to me I'd be cautious on cricket too. We were out there for major, for the major league season recently, we were at the Oakland Stadium, which is a, you know, as you know, a legendary baseball stadium, seats 58,000 and there were two and a half thousand people there watching the game.
Admittedly, as I pointed out, media revenues are much more important. I think cricket has got a good opportunity in North America because of the 40 million Indian diaspora. But to make it really work, you need it in schools, you need it in clubs to support that whole infrastructure. And I think that's a long haul, Simon, for cricket. And as far as rugby in North America, you probably know more about it than me, but it doesn't seem to have taken off.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: No, well, I, gosh. One of the tours I enjoyed the most was a three week tour to Los Angeles, Sacramento and San Francisco. And those are the days of course, that we both remember where you could enjoy yourself at the same time as get on the pitch and suffer the high tackles that used to come at you. You know, everyone looks at no high tackles. Well, back in the day, in the 80s, you would play us rugby players.
It was tackling from the, from the waist upwards, not the waist downwards. I mean it's incredible that we're talking here about cricket leading rugby in this sense, it's almost like a shift and in the sense that Welsh cricket and the Welsh Fire is driving forward.
Let's just go I was born in Wales, could have played for Wales. I'm the only Welsh born rugby player who appeared in the Rugby World cup final.
And as I told Gerald Davis, I'm sure I will remain that but because I can't see Wales getting to World cup final anytime soon.
You've got that heritage and background.
You're just down the road from Cardiff rugby that went into administration.
Welsh rugby seems to be tearing itself apart at the minute. They have one player who admittedly was influential on the British Irish Lions. Jack Morgan had a pretty good tour I thought and you know the clarion call by him and Yan Evans. Come on this, this is where we got to follow. Get the Welsh players sort of back up the curve.
Can you see out of what looks to be a pre shambolic situation Welsh rugby recovering somehow.
Obviously you're connected with Pontypreeve which is very much at the kind of vibrant sort of semi pro end I guess. I mean it's a huge question but can you see that they could perhaps take an example from what you've been up to on the cricket side?
[00:14:55] Speaker B: I'd like to think they could.
And you know I, I'm, you know my whole life has been in rugby as yours has and to see Wales where they are at the moment is, is, is very sad actually. And I do think there is a chance Wales could go permanently second tier for a number of reasons. But you know we're talking about business and sport here. Simon. I think the thing to remember here is that Wales is the poorest region of the uk.
We have failing schools in, in, in Wales. You know, we're right down the bottom of the PISA kind of tables. State school sport has suffered enormously and rugby in Wales is a state school sport, not a private school Sport. Fewer than 2% of pupils go to private schools in, in, in Wales relative to England. And as I said, you know, I mean modern professional sport is all about money and money tends to come out in the end as the main driver. Players tend to go where money is and you know, I can't see the, you know, the Welsh economy doesn't seem to be able to sustain four professional teams. The other thing is that, you know, and I've discussed this with you before, I think privately, Simon, you know my youngest son played in the Bucs Super League for the last four years.
Possibly one of the best Anglo Welsh leagues in, in the UK.
Effectively semi pro.
Wales has 3 universities out of the 10 teams in the Buck Super League. They are entirely ignored by the WRU as part of the pathway clearly not ignored by the Gallagher Premiership as we produce a lot of players, Underhill, Cardiff University, Don Brandt, Cardiff Met. We produce some good England internationals. But for some bizarre reason schools and university rugby don't seem to figure in the WRU's pathway.
And I think one other thing, a kind of left wing, a left field thing, Simon, is that the whole head injury thing, I think it, you know, is an existential event for rugby which I'm a governor of a state and a private school and I do see the effect of that in participation already with kids and it's an unresolved issue at the moment. The head injury thing, it really is unresolved and the litigation is still going on and I think the WRU are in the firing line on that as well. So where we go on that I don't know. And the final thing I'd mention is that participation has fallen off a cliff and I know it did in England as well. It has done in England. But in Wales, you know, I think our senior men's active playing pool is around 12,000.
You know, the guys that play every week, you know, that is a vanishingly small pool in which to produce competitive international players.
So I think the structure and the regional system, we were a club based, rather like France, a club based system with fanatical support. The regions have never captured the imagination and we've had 25 years of failing to address that point. I've gone on a bit there, Simon, as you said, it's a good question.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: The club based scenario is an interesting one too because I remember back in the day when Bath, Bristol, Gloucester were three of the biggest clubs, most successful clubs and then they put a green shirt on us and told us to represent the southwest and you know, having had a proper go at each other the week before on the pitch, suddenly you're the best of teammates. It's tricky and of course I learned most of my rugby across in the valleys and you know, you're upon to pre them, you know, we played those games over there against the Plethora, the Cardiffs etc and you know, learned to taught us how to play the game at the highest level and that that obviously is gone now. But I wanted to ask a question about management and leadership because how much do you think given that the leadership within rugby is questionable because of all the troubles that we've had, you can't say that it's been a success, that the head injury issues. Look at the clean out by Jack Morgan on Tizano. Look at the the hit on liner from Sheehan that both got taken off, that's because there's no rucking anymore. It's clear outs and clean outs and in our day we had rucking. Yeah, you might feel a boot on your back, but I think I'd have taken that versus a complete clear out to the head. So there was a. There are big changes going on. But do you think, I mean, when you look at crickets involved at the very top end, do you see a management and leadership in cricket as in the finance world, where you and I saw great things done by interesting people at top of big companies and small companies. It really matters, doesn't it? Management and leadership? Do you see that in cricket as having taken a step forward whereas rugby's kind of seem to be left behind right now?
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah, a couple of points on cricket, I mean it used to be very amateur, I think. I mean I've been involved in professional cricket for about seven years or so. I think there was a feeling, you know, it was committee led, but for a long time most of the clubs, if not all, are now, you know, staffed by professional boards with people from a variety of different backgrounds and business experience. So that's the first point. Secondly, and this is my personal view, Simon, having been involved in obviously pro rugby and, and cricket, professional cricket, I think at the end of the day, cricket does put aside self interest for the good of the game. There's massive politics, as in every sport, huge debate, healthy debate. But you know, unlike what I see in rugby where self interest rules and everybody's trying to cut their own TV deal, everybody's trying to get, you know, leverage over somebody else.
Cricket ultimately steps back and decides what's best, best for the good of the game. And I think we've seen that in the 100. The 100 is a good example of that because, you know, the non host counties have voted for this. Admittedly they've got a lot of money for that. But you know, there is the possibility that the eight franchises and the eight big grounds pull away to a certain extent in a financial sense and relevance from the other counties that is possible. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn, so.
But you know, I mean, when I look at rugby, as I said, I mean, I think cricket is quite like French rugby. French rugby used to be a shambles, as you know, on and off the field and it was always crazily run.
Once they did a deal with Canal plus which included basically brought all aspects of the game under one deal, including the recreational game which had part of that TV money. Exactly as cricket operates. You know, the sky deal is for the whole game in cricket, not just the pro game.
When France did that, it meant that everybody's interests were congruent and France have now pulled away because, you know, well, for other reasons as well given their background in club based competition. But I think that was a very important step for France and cricket has done that too.
And that means everybody is forced to come together because media revenues are 95% of the ECB's total revenues. So that's an important point. I think. One other thing I would say, and you might not agree, I know you've been a high level rugby administrator, Simon, but I have to say from a business perspective and a commercial perspective, I found since I've been involved in cricket that the experience, skills and quality of the people from a business perspective are significantly higher in cricket than they are in rugby.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: I think, yeah, I, I, I do agree with that. I think, and I've had many years, I remember when I was chairing epcr, which is, you know, the pinnacle of the professional club game in Europe, I was the only rugby playing, a member of that board as the chairman, the non exec chairman and three years, four years later, 75 of that board who, who were the chief execs or the chairs of the various unions and leagues had lost their jobs or been removed or left.
And you know, it kind of, it showed, I think the criteria for bringing them in because rugby is so complex. It's a question of passion, it's a question of 99% amateur, it's a question of, you know, it's a poorly run game. Therefore I'm an administrator, I'll come and do assimilates to business in many ways where people come in and try to affect things without necessarily understanding what the bigger issues are and then responding to them as opposed to walking in and saying here's my view, go with it and if you don't like it, well, unlucky and then you get the consequences of that. But I wanted to ask a slightly separate question about the finance markets that you and I worked in and where they are now and certainly mass group that I'm helping now. Data technology, AI, crypto, new assets, digital assets, these things are driving a lot of the new, the new world.
Do you see things like data technology, even AI being a big force in what's going to drive revenue and interest in the game of cricket, for example, the stats, bringing the game to more people?
[00:24:14] Speaker B: I guess that's two parts of that. It's off the field and on the field. On the field, definitely. I think cricket in the UK has lagged behind the use of stats and all the digital portfolio of tools that you can use to analyze that. American sport hasn't. And the classic was Moneyball in baseball. Everybody caught up pretty quickly though, Simon. So it was a bit of a zero sum game, I think, you know, spotting undervalued assets only lasts for a certain amount of time when everybody gets the same software. But I do think in English cricket we're lagging behind in that. I think they'll get put right very quickly. The Indians are very good at it.
Our own investor runs Infinite Computer Solutions which employs 18,000 people. So it's a, it's a tech company and I'm pretty sure that. Well, I know for a fact that the money ball approach in Washington Freedom is also used extensively and I think it'll become ever more, you know, ever, ever more used. And as I said, everybody will go up that curve. That said, and the competitive vantage tends to get xed out then a little bit off the field. You know, we want to be as efficient as possible. I mean, just as an aside, the 100 deal for, for Glamorgan is completely transformational. You know, it's, let's say it's not far short of being 100 million pound business. Whereas Glamorgan as a club turns over between 10 and 15 million a year and makes plus or minus half a million. You know, it's a pretty small business really. This is completely transformational and given the macro in Wales is very challenging, it takes us out of that. So anything we can do to accelerate that by the use of AI technology, etc. We will be using and we now have the resource to do that. So rest assured we'll be doing that. And I think within Wales more generally, just to get back on the rugby thing, I think, you know, it's interesting that rugby is obviously suffering at the moment. Football's had a fantastic run, they've done amazing job off the field with building their brand and their support base.
I think cricket now has a chance after being the poor relation for a long time to really, really exploit possibly some of the challenges our competitors have more generally. And the reason why, I think that just to you mentioned a different demographic with 100, around 44% of our tickets are bought by women and around 46% of the people coming or at least coming into the stadium are family based units.
You know, it's, it's a completely demographic A different demographic to say, you know, your normal T20 in the old days, Simon, or, you know, at the oval or something. It's completely different and I think technology accelerates that as well.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: I'm sure that's right. I'm sure that's right. So if you look back at two of the most stunning examples of drama and sport that this weekend's just shown us, and you know, when Mohamed Siraj took that last wicket at the oval, I mean, I wish I'd been there for the noise that you could hear it coming across the telly.
Just that amazing atmosphere that it had created. And then that three minute, I think it was about three minutes or 18 phases that won the British Irish Lions the series and probably has ended up being a bit of a golden moment in quite as a sea of to say mediocrity. But they definitely got well beaten in that third test. There was that two or three minutes of golden play that got them that last try. Yeah, those are moments to savor and I think we'll all remember those.
Have you had a moment back in the day, you know, that you can remember that says, gosh, that was a great moment in time when.
Yeah. Your shirt on or a moment where watching a sport. Because I, I, you know, some of them do live in the memory, don't they?
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: Stop to put you in the spot.
It could be winning a game against a ball against the head or something, is obviously is a hook.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: Okay, well, funny you mentioned that, Simon. You haven't primed me for this question, but I think my most memorable rugby memory, and I've got many as you have, and when I was playing for Bath and you were playing in the match as well, we beat Cardiff down on the wreck on a Wednesday night, I think 16, 15.
And we held out right at the very end of that game, there was a scrummage and Terry Holmes was their scrum half.
And I took the ball against the head against Alan Phillips, who was then the current Welsh hooker. We did. We took the ball against head. Chill got me and Richard Lee and Hill. Richard Hill asked grum half, then booted it into touch. Game over. And we, we escaped by the skin of our teeth. And that was one of my most memorable moments in sport. I mean, I think, you know, more generally not my purse, you know, not things not to do with me personally. I mean, there's been so many. I mean, I mean, I love motor racing, for example, and when Damon Hill won the World Championship in 96, I got very emotional about that. You Know, I, I met him a couple of times. He's had a very, he had a very difficult journey to where he got to despite being the son of a very famous motor racing driver. And yeah, that, that was one. I felt that.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: I think it's interesting that, that, you know, because we've all got those and I remember that match, in fact, Cardiff had most of the Welsh national team and Bath put one over them.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: And at the time I was, I was the only non international full international in the Bath team in that game. I'm pretty sure I can check the program but there were 14 internationals and there was me. It wasn't a full international.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and there we go, you see. So it doesn't, you don't have to have a star asterisk next to your name to do something meaningful in the game. But what it tells you is that the, you know, whatever the data, whatever technology is incredibly important. The human touch, the individual, the moment in time, you know, let's not. We don't want to take the emotion and the passion out of the sport and you've got to care about the work you do, whether it's in our world of finance where you had to have fun, you can't just sit there and grind it out. You've got to actually step back and be a human being. And I think sports got to have that and if we lose that and we just turn into a kind of a money driven thing, which obviously we have to be aware of it. But those moments of drama which to be fair, the T20 IPL have brought hugely, you know, 195 sixes in a tournament and that the family dynamic is huge. So it's been a wonderful thing to see. We're now going to see it happen and I wish you all the luck and you know, you've made your luck as an organization and as a sport and let's hope that rugby can do the same because these are two sports that matter to us both. So if you, if you had a vision of the next few years of Welsh Fire being Sapphire Gardens, that beautiful ground doing its thing, then what is it? It's a, it's a, it's a sellout with families and it's an all day event. Is it? What is it? Is it?
[00:31:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean the hundred with the double headers, it's basically an all day event, but it's selling out the ground. It's seeing people, you know, last season, Simon, I mean in cricket, Welsh people haven't. Glamorgan represents Wales obviously, but there's not a Welsh cricket team as such, playing at top level, you know, like England or. Or even Scotland and Ireland. Now, in cricket, however, Welsh Fire has the opportunity to become the team that the Welsh population get behind. And I even last season, I even heard people singing, call on Lance in. In the stands at one point. And I think we are getting there. It's still very early days for this league. I do think, as I said, it'll become one of the. That. Well, I think it'll become second only to the ipl. We'll have the best players, we'll have the Indian players, it'll be all over tv.
And I think it's. There is a bright future. But I think the other thing is not to neglect Glamorgan. I think cricket at all levels is on the up in the UK and definitely in Wales. And I see Fire and Glamorgan over time becoming much more closely aligned. I mean, from an operational perspective, we clearly are.
So, yeah, for me, that's what the future would look like and a stable financial base for that is essential. But as you've pointed out, those moments in sport, they are transcendental moments, which we remember for all of our lives, not just the ones that happen to us personally. But, for example, I dimly remember England winning the World cup in 1966. I was any four, but I do actually remember that, Simon, very dimly. So, yeah, I mean, it completely cuts through everything else. And I think that's the power of sport. As Richard Thompson, the ECB chair, constantly reminds me, it's live sport that does that and I think that that's pretty important as well. You know, the gladiatorial combat at any given time, whether it's short format or. Or, as we saw in the test match, an incredibly close match. You know, I'm optimistic.
[00:33:37] Speaker A: You absolutely are an example of where business, sports, demographics, you know, having fun is all coming together in one go. Seems like that's happened. It feels like it's a great example for other sports to follow, in this case, rugby. And I think for all those listening in who have businesses to run, let's not forget the data and technology mean a lot, but the people mean as much. And having fun means something too. So. But I've really enjoyed the chat. Thank you. Good luck with everything in the future.
Thanks.
We will definitely catch up in the months to come when all of this is playing out.
So thank you for being on the show. That's it from Hadda's playbook. I will see you again next week.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Thank you.
