Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Well, good morning everybody. It's the seventh edition of Haller's Playbook and delighted to be welcoming you on a day when stock markets have been hitting all time highs, interest rate cuts on the horizon, a big play on artificial intelligence because Nvidia, which is the big company that does all that is reporting this week. So apparently all in the world is rosy. I'm not sure artificial intelligence is the theme of what I'm talking about today, but before we get going, and I welcome my guest just to say thank you to Mass Group, Multi Asset Solutions International Trading Group. And in a world where we need a lot of liquidity in days and weeks to come, they're the company to speak to on forex, on gold and on crypto and other funds matters. So thank you to Mass for sponsoring this call. And so here we are after the first weekend or possibly the biggest sporting event of the year.
And I'm going to say that because I really believe it, the Women's rugby World Cup 2025. And I'd like to welcome Gisele Mather, who is herself a Rugby World cup winner, which is more than I can say because we lost in 1991 and she won in 1994. We played in the same position, but so I'm obviously permanently envious of a World cup winner and many other accolades besides become a top coach in the men's and the women's game.
And so has been up taking in the atmosphere, commentating.
Welcome Gisele, thank you for coming on the show. Just give us a sense of what it's been like. First weekend of the Rugby World Cup.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: I would say breathtaking, inspirational, exciting, energetic, all of those things. It was joyful.
It's been exponential in comparison to what it's been in the past.
So I started off in the stadium of Light up in Sunderland and there were 4,42,700 fans in there. When the Women's Rugby World cup finished in 2022 at Eden park, it was a sellout, but it was 42 and a half thousand so we have started higher than we finished in just a three, three year span. And obviously it is and we already know that Twickenham is sold out. Standalone female fixture sold out and could sell out twice over apparently. So tickets are now marketed, tickets are gold dust for that. And you can't, from way back when, you just can't imagine what that feels like to have been part of that growth all the way through and just looking at it and just wow.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: And as you say Sunderland, you know which is an absolute hotbed of football.
You know, Sunderland FC has just got promotion, you know, the stadium of light and suddenly, you know, the noise factor. I wasn't there myself, but I tuned in. The noise was incredible. And you know, it's not like there was any doubt about who was going to win, but it was just so much fun, wasn't it?
[00:03:21] Speaker A: They've been spoiled, haven't they, because they started the Premier League the week before with the home match against West Ham and won three nil. So the place went nuts then, and then this weekend again, it went nuts. Massive firework display afterwards.
The energy from the crowd was sensational. As you say, it wasn't a close game.
Um, but women's rugby crowds really appreciate the effort, the intent, the, the skill level that they're seeing. And the underdogs have been incredibly well supported this weekend.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: And I thought with all the matches actually, but, but let's talk about England, who obviously are red hot favorites for the to. To reverse that last minute defeat in Eden park against the Black Ferns. It seemed as though they were having so much fun. The smiles on the faces, you know, when they scored their tries and the interaction with the crowd. And that wasn't just England, you know, I thought the USA played their part in that as well.
That seems to be a genuine connection between the crowd and the players for all the matches I saw over the weekend.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: And I think that's one of the major growth points of the women's game, that there is that connection and it's formed via the personalities of the players, that there's a much bigger, bigger drive on that than I believe there is in the men's game. The girls, after every international for years now, they stay, and all the fans stay around the stadium afterwards. And the players can be out there often for over an hour, taking selfies, chatting to young fans.
And there is a huge connection. There's a massive following. Obviously Ilona Mar. I wondered how long it would take us to mention her name on the podcast.
She is the most followed rugby player in the world, ahead of Solo Colossi. All right, so he's obviously the most in the men. She is the most in the world and she relates to her young fans. She talks about issues around the sport, around funding, around body image, all of those things.
She actually, before the game, put out, what color lipstick do you think I should wear for the game?
Now, some people may take that very flippantly and think that she's not focused on what she's doing, but it's part of being female, part of who she is.
So the fans voted for this crimson red, crimson red number which she wore throughout the game.
And just to back up that, it's not just about her post contact meters were off the charts. She was fabulous in producing the goods on the field as well.
So we're allowing the girls to be who they want to be and who they authentically are, and the young fans are engaging with it, which is what you're doing, picking up in the crowd. They feel like they know them and.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: It'S fantastic and it's amazing how you make that comparison. And I think it's a valid one with the men's game, which, you know, there are attempts to try and bring the players away from the game into the public domain, get them to assess, you know, what sort of human beings they are and how to communicate that into the crowd. I mean, you mentioned Sier Kholisi and, you know, when I've seen him play, both in South Africa and elsewhere, he and many others will be in the crowd for the next couple of hours post match, engaging with them, having selfies, giving things away.
And he's really bought into that because, remember, he represents a nation that brings together a nation in many different ways and he knows that responsibility. So it feels like this is something that, you know, the women's game is really embraced and that's going to drive the growth, isn't it? It's got to. Do you not think?
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Absolutely. And if you look at Colossi, what he's done, it's driven the growth for the men's game. It's brought South Africa together by the fact that he is a black captain whose morals and values are on display every single minute. He pulls others up all the time.
So the support that he did for the women box before they came over was fantastic. He was everywhere. Everything they were doing and raising their profile before they came here for the World cup, and it's the same effect in the women's game, but we do it, I think, more like he is an expert at it, but a lot of the boys aren't, whereas I think the girls are. They're very natural, very authentic. They don't mind being filmed here, there, you know, and everywhere. And what they're saying is authentically them, they're not putting on something that they think people want. And if you want to connect with them, great. If you don't, great. Everyone has a choice now. Whereas in the past, I think the women's game has been not given the opportunity it wasn't given the visibility.
Now I've got a choice. Nobody's saying you have to watch it and that's the difference. I can turn my TV on now and I can choose to watch the men's games. I can choose to watch the women's games. As it is for me, I watch everything. I love my sport, so I watch both. I watch football, I watch cricket, partly because my children, one of them's a footballer and one of them's a cricketer. I watch all sorts of. Of things, but I've got the choice now. Whereas growing up, I didn't have any female role models in sport. I didn't. My role models were male. So from that point of view, it's fantastic. And that you see in the youngsters turning up in the crowd, they're wearing tracksuits, they're wearing rugby kit, they're wearing, you know, the cowboy hats, all of the things that are coming up because they're now role models and it's cool to be a young girl in sport now, whereas when I grew up it wasn't fascinating.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: And we're going to go back in time in a little bit. Before we, before we do that, though, you mentioned Lona Meyer and I agree with you. She was awesome on the pitch. Obviously in a losing cause, which was not that unexpected for the England team, where history beckons them, really, you've got to look at the standards they've kept for so long and here they are in their home World cup with, you know, it's for them to fail, apparently, you know, statistics and all the rest. But who. Who in that side on that day impressed you in terms of who's going to make the difference in the latter stage of the competition when you assume they'll be up against much more significant opposition?
[00:09:41] Speaker A: I think, I think every game and you're. You'll note this as a player, every game is different. So different players will stand up. The thing that England has is, is strength across all 32.
We have a bench on the day that is going to make a massive difference. If we pick up knocks and bumps, then we're going to have players that can step into that. The competitors for the trophy don't have so much depth. That's the difference. So the starting sides that will compete are very good, but when the bench comes on, it becomes more in England's favour because we have the premiership. Women's rugby, the PWR players are playing across that. Week in, week out, really competitive games week in, week out. And in some of the Other nations, their leagues are in infancy and in some they don't have domestic leagues. Loads of international players come across now to play in the pwr. The Canadians, jam packed full of players that play in the PWR. The Americans. So 13 of the starting American side play their rugby in the pwl.
They've just started the women's elite rugby in the us. Six teams, that's the WER six teams just completed its first season. It was successful, but had the same issue that we had in the PWR at the start, where they're key players. Most of them play for Denver, therefore Denver are smashing everybody in that competition. And we had the same problem with the Red Roses. Where do they all want to play? And when you get a distribution of the top players, that's when you get a really competitive league. So we're still working on that over here and they've still got that to work on.
But from an individual point of view on Friday night, I thought Hannah Botterman was unbelievable. I think she had the best game I've ever seen her play. She was everywhere. She's a natural jackala in key situations close to the line, but she performed that twice. She then scrummaged. I think it was five or six penalties to England. She then went from a scrum and then next thing is passing the ball on the opposite wing and then receiving it back. I mean, she was just everywhere.
She was exceptional. Meg Jones, not the biggest player in the world, but absolutely polacked. Georgie Paris reading and I hope that she's okay because we don't know. She left the field. She got hold of Lottie Sharp and drove her back 15 metres and controlled the tackle really well. Instead of. Now, if someone gets hold of someone, they can tip them. They can. And then we're on all realms of trouble. She didn't do that. She controlled her really well and then put her on the floor. So Meg Jones thought process is good. Natasha Hunt bosses the whole show. She's fantastic. Zoe Harrison did well.
So Ellie Kildunn, she was exceptional. Lovely little nutmeg to score her try.
But then there's weapons all over the field. Zoe Oldcroft will come into her own through this tournament. Abby Dow when she gets the ball is fantastic.
You've got players right across the board and you could start the front row. That came on in the second half. You could start it and reverse it quite happily, quite comfortably. So I think that's England's main, main strength.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: It'll be fascinating to see how many become even more Household names than they already are. As we go through this and what a seminal moment it's likely to be. And let's just therefore just go back 34 years where we both failed to win a World cup, because actually we failed in 1991 against Australia. And I think you did as well. I can't remember who you played there.
It was the USA. Okay, so there we are, but three years later, you were a winner in 1994, and you describe what's going on now. Just give us a sense who were you playing for at the time and just give us a little snapshot of.
Because this is like what goes on in, you know, business grows over a period of years from the slow start and where we are now. But there's always a beginning. And you were right. You were there right at the beginning. So as you approach that World cup, you know, you lost, lost the one against usa, picked yourselves up as we did. Unfortunately, I'd retire by the time the next one came along and. And then you had a crack at the next. So just give us an insight what it was like 30 plus years ago.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: First of all, thanks for reminding me. It was that long ago, but me too, but I think so. Certain things like in 1991, we played four games in nine days.
I mean, that's just insane. And in 1994, we played five games in 14 days.
So that is the way the game has grown in terms of player welfare, understanding of what that does. The concussion protocols didn't exist in 1991.
The resources that we had.
In 1991, four women decided that there was going to be a Women's World Cup. The IRB said, no, there wouldn't be because of the Men's World Cup. They didn't want it to get in the way. And the girls went, well, we're all unions, independent of you, so we're just going to do it anyway. They ran it on a shoestring. There were 12 teams that came from around the world, and it was the first sort of time that we found out other players playing across the other side of the world. You know, it was fabulous. And again, there was an element very similar in terms of the joy. So the opening ceremony, lots of singing. And I don't know if you've seen the clips of the opening ceremonies across the country for this World Cup. The joy, the involvement, the.
You know, I don't think at a men's World cup opening ceremony you have all the teams singing and a big song battle going on. And it was brilliant. And Very similar in our day, that kind of flavor that female athletes bring.
So we slept. There was one night where the hotel that we were supposed to, that we were staying in, they'd overbooked. So we slept one night on the floor in a big room that, you know, these are the things that happen to get this started. And I suppose you could look at that in a business startup.
You do what you have to do, whatever needs to be done. It might not be, you know, the perfect. It's not out of the manuals that say you should be doing X, Y and Z, but you do what's got to be done. And that's what those four women did. And they bought the game together.
And that was the first tournament I as an individual had.
And you'll remember back in the day, we only got off the bench if there was an injury on the field. So the 15.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: I sat on the bench for a year and a half watching those Carly and Gus got play and wishing I was on the pitch.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Anyway, yes, watching Karen Almond play and Jane Mitchell play at fullback. And at the time I was a 10 fullback rather than the center.
And that was where I was playing at club. And in 1990, we had a game against Holland because again, back in the day we didn't have as many fixtures. So you had to really use what we would. What we had. Again, maybe similar in business that you have to.
The little things that you've got, you have to really go for because you don't get so many opportunities.
So we were in Holland and I'd been on the bench like you probably two and a half years potentially.
And they picked me to start that game at flyhalf. And they told the team, the reason that we're playing is if Karen gets injured in the World cup, you need to know that we could still win the World Cup. I was like, oh, great, thanks. Great way to start my first cap. But nonetheless played that. And then in that tournament, my second cap came in the World cup final. So there were no injuries on the run in. But in the with 25, 30 minutes to go, Jane Mitchell at fullback dislocating her shoulder, which obviously was awful for her. But for me that meant that first time I ever came off the bench in all that time for the injury, and I got on and although we lost the game, I absolutely loved the experience. And it was from there that talking about taking opportunities, the coaching team went, right, she needs to be playing. So that's when at England level they moved me to 12. So I played outside of Karen. And for the next three years, I played in all the internationals.
And then when we got to the World cup, we, as I say, five games in 14 days. And we did a bit of a run for that when we went out to the Canadian.
We went out to Canada where we played America, Canada, Wales, in six days. And we were out of season at the time. So my body, after we played America and beat them for the first time when we were out there, then we had to play Canada two days later. And honestly, I was lying in a hot bath on the morning of the Canadian game, just trying to move my whole body was like, what is this?
[00:18:39] Speaker B: Of course, now hot baths are out. You're not supposed to have hot baths anymore. We're supposed to have an ice bath, whatever.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: And I was just in bits. And then we played the Canadian game. It was one of the most physical games, and we just won that. And I remember just sitting on the pitch after the final whistle battered, and the coaches came up to me and said, we're not going to play against Wales. And it's the only time I ever went, thank you. Because I just knew that my body couldn't have gone two days later against Wales. But we had those experiences, so we're ready for the. The intensity of what a World cup would be.
And then we. We went through those five games and played the US Again in the final. And this time our forward pack was immense. And it was again about the style. The American backs were crazy. Really, really good, technically. Their forwards were not as good. Our forwards, very, very good. We were good in the backs, but not, I wouldn't describe us as good as them, but we worked out ways to contain. And then we did score some of the tries through the backs as well. But our forwards took control of that game big time, and we went on to win it.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: But the rest is history. You got the medal. Is there a medal? Was there something that they lost?
[00:19:46] Speaker A: The medal.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: The medal. Oh, dear.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: How bad is that? But in the. In that, though, that 94 World cup, it was in Scotland and we stayed at the George, which you probably will know, because I'm sure, right. But the expense of that came to us. So prior to the tournament, I was doing all my strength and conditioning, doing all my training, all the skill work, all the what have you. And I was selling raffle tickets because the more raffle tickets I sold, the less my personal bill would be for the hotel at the end. So that was very much part of my World Cup. I was a teacher, so all the parents at the schools that I was teaching were buying these raffle tickets. All the rugby clubs that I was played for or working with or anything, all bought raffle tickets and each player was supplementing themselves by selling these raffle tickets. So that now obviously the players have just come back from France on a chartered aircraft, especially for the red roses. Red roses put on each of their chair. On each of their chairs. The teams that have traveled a long way, Australia, New Zealand, etc were all flown over on business class.
So there we go. From sleeping on the floor to selling raffle tickets.
[00:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:58] Speaker A: To ten World Cups later. We're now.
And that again is growth, isn't it?
You start your company up, you're doing the small, you're sweating the small stuff, you're doing what you have to do and then as time goes through, you get those bits right and you add a little bit and you add a little bit all the way through. So now the girls are being treated as their male counterparts, which is, I.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Mean it is, but it's taken time, hasn't it? And the game went pro. Cause the men's game went pro in 94.5 and I just stopped and it felt like a pro game. The amount of time we're having to put in. I remember in the World cup year I was away for three and a half months and away from home, away from work, you know, women of prayer and you know, losing money effectively just to represent your country. Of course that had to change and it did.
But in, in the after, it's taken a lot longer, hasn't it, that you. The game. The women's games remained amateur for another two decades or more where you were all sitting there, you know, having. With day jobs, training in the evenings. I guess it's just a throwback to what the men's game used to be like. So this has been a gradual progression. Even now many of the players are not professional, are they? So there's a bit of a mix and match, isn't there?
[00:22:13] Speaker A: So the red roses are fully contracted and then. But the club players, some all clubs now try and we've got a salary cap in the clubs which has to cover the whole squad nowhere, you know, the men's what, 7.2 million, something like that. The women's is 260,000.
So has to be shared across all players.
Each club chooses that in the way they want. So some do it to get the best players in. So the red roses get topped up more. Some do it where they try and give as much as they can.
To everyone because you know it's a cliche but you're only as strong as your weakest link. And in club rugby that's very true. You do need to have, if you're going to win the thing, you've got to have a really strong squad across the board. So you've got to help as many players as you possibly can to build and have opportunities to train, not have to do full time work.
So it's growing in club, in the club level. There are now various leagues across the world. So the Super Akapiki, I never say it right. For the New Zealand you've got the Australian Super W, they, they've got their league going now you've got the Celtic League which involves Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Their, their clubs all compete against each other. You've obviously got our pwr, you've got the Elite Feminine in France and they're all building. And I think that will be the biggest change for the World cup in, in Australia in 29, that these leagues will become more mature elsewhere. So the PWR is really maturing well but it's full now of internationals which means that potentially that's blocking the younger international players. So everyone plays the red roses. But those that are breaking through are not necessarily getting the rugby that they should be getting because it's flooding with international rugby players. So there's a balance that we've got to find with that. But all these other leagues I think very soon will say, right, if you want to play international rugby, you've got to come and play your rugby back here in your own country. And I think that between 29 in Australia and 33 in the U.S. i think that will be a significant change that happens, that those leagues will develop. You've also got the 360 thing. I don't know what that's going to do in the women's game. Obviously nobody's quite clear what's happening in the men's game around that yet. But the women's game there are chats going on that something similar will be happening in the women's game. So that's going to throw a big spanner in everybody's works as to where that goes and could be awesome, could be detrimental, we don't know yet. But again, a landscape that's.
You've got to navigate it well.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: It's going to grow. Yeah, it's going to grow. I think one of the things that you alluded to there and you know, mismatches, there have been plenty of people who detractors who talk about the mismatches that are there. And I look at that and go, hold on a second because in. I think it was 1987, was it?
New Zealand beat Japan 147 nil or something. And even in 2003 when England won the World Cup, I think we beat Georgia in a pool by 100 points.
And Georgia's now one of the teams knocking on the door in the men's game.
It does take time.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: And Japan went on to beat the Springboks in Brighton 100%.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: So.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: So if you don't start, you've got.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: To start somewhere, haven't you? And all of these teams, what's impressed me in just Naomi weekend is just the, the ambition and the flair and the movement of the ball you've seen from all of the teams. Okay. They're not quite set up to deliver on it against the senior teams. You know, a good Littlan is not going to be a good big one at the moment in this tournament, I doubt. I mean there hasn't been, I think possibly Scotland. Wales was a bit of a surprise.
People thought Wales might perform better.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: But Scotland seemed to have something going there and we'll see. You know, gosh, Scotland, Wales has always been one of those great sort of to and fro international matches. So the mismatches are there. But as you say, the development of the game will mean that some of the better players currently playing the English leagues will get pulled back to the domestic leagues as the money comes into the game.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: But that gives growth to everyone because that means that the thing that I'm talking about, the strength and depth of the bench of the whole squad currently isn't there. Whereas if you pull everyone back into their own leagues, I always think you need to have some players that go across because that's rugby. The flavour that when you bring international players into, you know, into a team, they bring something that's unique and special and causes growth for the others as well that are, you know, of that country. So I'd never want to say you can't bring international rugby players across leagues because I think that would be awful. But I think you need to think about capping it as to how many can. So in France that's what they do. Only four international players can be on the starting roster from. So they've got to have their French and then four can play. So you can have more in your squad if you want to, but on the day of a competition, only four. So whereas we at the moment, I think are 10 have to be English in your squad. So that's perhaps too far the other way.
But that growth of the game, more athletes will get opportunity at higher level competition if you can promote those leagues and everyone playing in them. And that's where the growth of the game will happen in terms of skill and development. And these big score lines will close from what are currently known as the lower nations.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: No, it's a natural progression. And I think if anyone was to talk about what impact Finn Russell's had on Bath Rugby, for example, it was my old club and now they're triple champions and expecting to do more. And, you know, Finn is.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Say it again. You love saying that. Say it again.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, of course, you know, waiting for my other club Harlequins, to step up and show that they're a little bit more than multicolored because at the moment they're a little bit too maverick.
[00:28:37] Speaker A: They do play some stunning, though.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: No, they do, but they just need to put a bit of hard edge into it, which is where I guess, you know, a lot of the great play you're seeing from the women's game.
A little bit of hard edge being brought into it, a little bit of, you know, someone to help Elena Meyer, for example, become the player that she can be. You need a bit of help. You can't do it all on your own. Although she did try. And before I come on to one other big question I want to ask you.
Let's just deal with, you know, as you look forward, is it right, is it Canada more than the Black Ferns that are going to be the big challenge to England? I mean, obviously you don't judge on one match, but the Black Ferns looked a little bit all over the place. I thought I could be wrong, but. And they've had a few injuries. So is it Canada we've got to look at as the big challenge or France or both or.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: So the top four nations, obviously Canada, New Zealand, the Roses and France, those are the four that I would expect to hit semi final. I think the Irish will have something to say about that and could well be in that mix. So we'll see what happens there. Because they have the ability on their day and they have really strong players right across the. Across the field.
The Canadiens are super smart, super smart. So basically the model that they've done, Kevin Ruan is their head coach. They're not a massively resourced rugby nation. Okay. As you know. And when you look at the top six, it's South Africa in the men's top six rankings slightly different positions to the women's and Canada takes that place in the women's. So your top six nations are the same bar Canada and South Africa across the two different ones.
So Canada what they do.
When I was the director of rugby at Trail Finders, Kevin would ring me and say what positions are you short on? What positions would you need?
So I have a discussion with him. I then get the CVs of the players that or that play those positions. I then make phone calls with those players. I make the offers that I can to those players. Whether Canada tops them up to help them, I don't know.
That's happened in every single PWR club. So most of, not all, but most of them train in PWR clubs. So we're getting that high exposure to good competition which is what makes the Roses as good as they are.
He then traveled to the World seven Series which obviously I was coaching on. So I know that he was the only head coach who did this.
He of the 15s. He spent two World Series tournaments with Canada, helped coach them six. I think six of those girls have transitioned seamlessly then into the Canadian squad.
For example, you've got Olivia Apps playing at scrum half and she's playing on the wing. That doesn't happen unless the coach knows them really, really well and can integrate them really quickly.
You then have he's had training camps over in Canada for the girls that are in Canada. He's had training camps over here. He's coaching at Saracens and helping there with some of the girls and just super, super smart and the girls now are. I mean the performance that they put in against Fiji was sensational. Was really, really good.
When they played the US in their last warm up game, their first half was very dodgy. They were rusty. The second half again sensational. I think the Black Ferns longer travel not been over here quite so long. Looked a little bit rusty. Not sure why they played 13 players for the last 20 minutes.
Don't think either he'd used on his bench the commentating team didn't say anything and I wasn't live at that game so I'm not sure what that was all about. Don't think that's particularly cool. If he had players on the bench and was just making sure that he didn't pick up injuries. I don't know what that reason was. They're very talented.
They played probably their second team against Spain so we haven't seen the best of them yet and we'll see that when they Play Ireland. So we'll wait and see. But all four of those nations will have to perform on their day to make sure that they win that.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: And you've got, I mean, thinking about smart play as well. Canada's kicked all their goals. They've got a second row forward kicking the goals, haven't they?
[00:32:58] Speaker A: Sophie De Goody, she's very, very good. Yes.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And she was nailing them from everywhere.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: So the progression in the women's game, it's always been, oh, the girls can't kick, the girls can't kick. Now you've got the kicking game fully involved in the women's game.
You've got kickers, for example, in the Red Roses, kickers right across the back line who can all comfortably put boot to ball. You've got players that are happy converting from sidelines without, you know, and this is across the game. And actually in some of the second tier nations you saw really good kickers. So that's again another growth from 1991 to where we are now, that skill set, because the game demands it. That skill set is now there.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think the nice way to sort of summarize some of this, that when you look back through the recent advent of the way the hundred has developed with the women's game, cricket, and you know, the complete difference in audience coming through the gate now to watch these matches, much younger, more family oriented, you know, the scenes of hysteria as the lionesses, you know, against the odds and wow, you know, they were behind with minutes to go as top athletes we all know about.
And it happens in business as well, you know, the, the teacup mentality. Think correctly under pressure, do the right thing with a minute to go to win the game, which is what lionesses did. So the world of sport's on fire in the women's sort of world. And here we are and the same dynamic is happening, isn't it? The type of crowd, the way they engage. This is just something to embrace for.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: All the sport we're in. Sport revolution, I call it, okay? And it largely comes from visibility.
So the hundred, it runs on the same day. You play, the women play and then the men play and families go, right, we're gonna have a day out at the cricket and they have a really fabulous day out. It's not priced off the chart, so you've gotta get that piece right. And for example, men's internationals, you have to take a mortgage out to take the kids, the family to go watch that.
So whereas you could take a family quite comfortably, everybody category A tickets, 100 quid this weekend for, you know, you price it right, and then families can come. That way, they get engaged, the youngsters then go, I want to go again. So. And that's how it grows.
But the visibility piece in the football, it's been covered by media. The money has come into the wsl, so that's grown over a period of time. And I'd say in rugby, we're always about five or six years behind that growth because they started it first. And football over here is the national sport, so it has more behind it and there is more money in football.
But when the. When the broadcasters get involved, that's when visibility happens. We then go into the homes of people and they go, do you know what? I really like this. And in some cases, it's a purer form. You don't have all the women rolling around all over the place on the floor when they get injured.
You don't have the speed of the game is there. In the women's game, we run the ball. We still do run it more. Even though the kicking game is there, we do run it more.
As you've already explained, the intentions of the lower nations, the passion that they play with and the intent that is being played.
And people now, as I said at the beginning, have the choice because it's on our tellies, because it's now across the country. 8. That's a really smart move to have eight venues and only one game will be at Twickenham. So that's the game where they can sell it out for 80,000 by just one game. If you put the semis there as well, would it have hit 80? Probably not.
So you've got both the semis at Bristol quarterfinals again across the country.
What a smart move. You're going everywhere. So the visibility of the sport is there. I went to. Obviously I was in the Stadium of Light and then I went to the Salford Community Stadium, which is the AJ Bell, where sail play. That was full.
Extra chiefs, not full, but it was 7,8000, I think was there. You know, the numbers are coming in for countries that aren't even Oz, which is sensational. Not a home nation, you know, New Zealand, Spain, and there were 7,8000 down there. That's fantastic. So the big reason for all of that is the visibility. And as soon as the media got involved, we've been able to grow and grow and grow all women's sport and people enjoy it. It's really fun. There's a lot of joys.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: Well, listen, I think We've got weeks of fun to come. And loving the fact that Sale Sharks ground is sold out for the first time probably ever in the history of sale. Sorry, Sale Sharks, it took the women's game to come to your stadium to sell it out, which is something. But I think the way that we're embracing this is. And I don't always give the RFU a good time, but well done, RFU for the part they played in that. For the World cup organizers to, as you say, bring it to the whole country to make that scarcity value of Twickenham or the Allianz, or I'll still call it Twickenham, a scene of a sellout for what's hopefully going to be a big contest between England and somebody.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: I'm not sure, but when that statement was made, Sue Day made it when we did the bid for this World cup way back, and she said, we will sell out Twickenham. And at the time, everyone just looked at her and went, you're joking. But behind the scenes, everyone went, no, that's what we're going to do. And again, from a business perspective, you start and you have your realistic goals, but you have, this is where we want to be and it's there every day. It was there. We're going to sell tweaking them out. We're going to sell twicken them out. We're going to sell tweaking them out and guess what?
We're sold twicken them out.
So by being aspirational, you've got to be realistic with the goals that you set for. As we've traveled and we have big now, the PWR has to stay sustainable, which is why the salary cap is what it is at the moment, because otherwise some teams will spend a fortune, others can't. And we'll get the same problem that the men's game had where you lose Wasps, London Irish and who else did we lose?
[00:39:09] Speaker B: Worcester. Well, they're coming back, of course, but we lost Worcester. Yeah.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Losing those teams and Jersey wasn't sustainable. Just wasn't sustainable. So that's why they've got to keep that. But by having aspirational goals that you think, do you know what? That could be real. And if every day it's there and it's in the background and we keep moving, moving, moving, and they've done it.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Absolutely fascinating. It's such a great moment to get an insight into everything as it unfolds, but the touch paper has been lit and look for you and I, who you were at the Very beginning of it. I was just a bit of a failure ahead of the 2003 win.
Obviously it took 10 years to get the payback in. So we got there in the end and I was. But my. As you can see, the.
I'm call it the loser's medal. You know, the medal that meant I appeared in final is still up on the wall. And I didn't throw it in the river like some of my colleagues because I took it as a great, great moment. And you know, the way sports develop and the way that it's embracing the wider public and bringing it to, you know, much more broader enjoyment is just. Is wonderful to see. So thank you for giving us your insights.
[00:40:23] Speaker A: I'd just like to take up on that. That the big thing round. So you say failure, it wasn't a failure. And to throw your medal away like that.
There's just different success levels for everybody just because there will only be one winner of this tournament. But the success already for England, Scotland and Wales point of view, and Ireland to a large degree having the home World cup, there's going to be so many more people wanting to play the game. That's already a win, that's a success.
So only one team will actually lift the trophy. But there are successes everywhere. And really, in my view has always been really, really important to celebrate those successes because that's what keeps human beings going. And if you only ever have, well, we came second, so that's no good. Or we came third, we never even made the final. But if you can always have there the secondary goal. I know everybody wants to win in sport, I get that. But there's always secondary goals. About 20, 29 in Australia, 30, 33 in the U.S.
western Samoa. Where will they be in 33? What will the U.S. do? Well, they now they've got eight years to prepare for their own home World cup as players. So they've launched the wer And I just think we've got to keep perspective on what failure is. It's not a chuck your medal in and I'm massive about that. There is a success and I. It's on your wall because it was massive. And you playing in that World cup and that and getting those medals and doing those things is what now makes where England are now. That's how it works. So me playing back in 91, selling raffle tickets in 94, coming third in 98 is part of what's happening now. So it is successful, but in different ways. And I think again I go back to the business thing that's it. You're not going to be successful when you start. You've got to. And everybody wants. In today's generation, everybody wants success now. It's got to be now. Everything's got to be immediate. Like, we have such a throwaway culture of it doesn't work now, so throw it away instead of trying to fix something or look deeper. And I just think we got to be a bit more patient and we got to find the successes to continue. And you might start in one direction, but if you look for success, you veer off a little bit and go in a slightly different. So bang, there it is. That's where your niche is. And I.
Failure is a massive pointer to the next bit. And I don't think medals should ever be thrown in.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: I think it's so perfectly put. I'm gonna. I'm gonna bottle that comment and package it up and send it to some of my former colleagues who did throw the medals away, because you're right. And, you know, I. I always remember that so many people took out the game of rugby after that World cup experience.
You know, people were coming to, wow, my son wants to play rugby now, doesn't want to play football. And that's what we hope will happen and is, I'm sure, going to happen as a result of this tournament.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: So massive success.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: That's what you want.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: Massive success.
So, no.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Well, listen, congratulations for the part you've played in that and the excitement and the enthusiasm and obviously it's infectious and we're all feeling it. So keep that commentary going and I hope they got you on there for the final when we get there, if we get there.
So thank you, Gisele. Really appreciate you coming on the show and let us hope that the game will grow. The whole thing is a celebration and that's how we should finish and enjoy.
[00:43:49] Speaker A: The next six weeks. Tune in and enjoy the next six weeks.
[00:43:52] Speaker B: Thanks to all. That's it for this week from Hala's playbook.
