Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hi there, it's Simon Halliday on the sixth edition of Haller's Playbook. Delighted to see you all tuning in. And yet another week of sport, unforgettable sport. And I'm joined by Harry Fry in Australia, which is not a bad place to be at the moment for the sports upsets they've been springing. But before I get going, just like to thank Mass Group who sponsored this podcast, Multi Asset Solutions, dealing in foreign exchange, gold digital assets, fast growing asset class and MAS funds. And I'd like to thank them for their support in all of this. It's a fascinating time, isn't it? We've, we've had the Australians turning over the British and Irish Lions, then they've come to the very heart of South African rugby, if not world rugby, given that they are the current double world champions and they literally gave them a bloody nose by scoring nearly 40 points in their citadel at Ellis Park. Of course, the rematch is at Cape Town and there will be a Boca backlash, as everyone keeps telling me, because I'm sitting out here in the Cape and people are licking their lips in anticipation.
Aussies may think they've done their bit and wouldn't mind a heroic defeat. We'll see. Harry might have a view on that.
We've also sit here on the edge of probably the most important women's sporting event ever, the Women's Rugby World cup, which kicks off on Friday.
And we're very much hoping that that's going to be a tournament to remember. Of course, the Red Roses are overwhelming favorites. So with that in the background, Harry part of Mass Group, rugby player extraordinaire. We'll come on to that. But just give me a little bit of a view from down under about what people feel about the Australian rugby union team in the wake of their recent results. What's the feeling like down there?
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Great question, Simon.
Well, I've been here for nearly four years now, as you're quite right.
Love my rugby. Always have done been involved with rugby here in Australia for a few years as well at club level.
And it's amazing. Sport here in general is just amazing because when Australia is doing well, the whole nation gets behind them. And it's very, very apparent.
One thing that I sort of noticed when I first moved here is the Australian rugby, Rugby union, just to clarify was it felt as if it was a bit. Having a bit of a dip wasn't what it once was. But as you just rightly put that, they've had a couple of wins and all Of a sudden everyone's back on the bandwagon. Everybody's super eager to get behind the wallabies again. So it's, it's exciting times and it's with the rugby World cup just around the corner as well. 2027, it's looking very positive for Australia and the Wallabies.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. So I did in the previous editions of Hannah's playbook, I had a fireside chat with Skull Berger, obviously Forbes Springbok who took that to feet last weekend. And then David Campisi who memorable 40 minutes with him talking about the state of Australia, rugby, etc. Do you just understanding the Rugby union is only one of a number of key sports in Australia where your Aussie rules and rugby league. Rugby union is still very much a junior sport versus those two big ones. Is that not right?
[00:03:47] Speaker B: I could discuss this with you for hours. I know we haven't got hours, but one thing that I've noticed is that yeah, you're quite right, rugby league is so prevalent here.
This is my opinion and what I've observed. It just seems to be growing bigger and bigger every year over the last three years. Just from my observation, rugby's unions just playing catch up with league.
Now I have my own theories as to why that is.
I still think union here is seen as a sport for the upper classes as it was Maybe in the UK 30, 40 years ago, I don't know. But yeah, from my perspective it just feels if league is a lot more, dare I say, accepted by everyone, union still seems to be a bit of a harder concept for everyone to grasp. But sport as a whole, I mean you can't go wrong, far wrong with Australian sport.
So much to choose from and the nation and the public really do get behind all sports.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Well, we got the 20, 27 World cup as you say.
And I said on the record I felt the Australian side would be super competitive for that World cup and it looks like they're well on the track towards that. So look Harry, I want to go back down memory lane a little bit with your rugby career and just cover off the fact that you played your rugby in England for the oldest rugby club in the world, Blackheath. Yep. And it always resonates with me, Blackheath, because not only do they have that status, but it's also the first club I ever played against as a first class rugby player. I was seconded or forced into playing by guys hospital who actually compete with Blackheath being the oldest club. And I played against a very, very High end Blackheath team put 70 points on us and it scarred me forever really. It's my first ever first class rugby experience. It was only matched by that horrendous plunge bath that they had up at the retro field which looked.
Still think about it as being incredibly unhygienic. But you know, Blackheath is your club, it's called the club.
And that for you is probably quite a big part of your kind of not just your sporting life, but being part of an organization like that.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: It's probably, without sounding too extreme, the biggest part of my life to date. And I'll give you some context behind that. I even met my wife at Rectory Field.
So yeah, my best friends, my wife, everything for me just sort of stemmed around Blackheath Rugby Club or Blackheath Football Club as it was once called.
Yeah, I'd sort of dive into that a little bit. For me as a child I always played rugby because my father played rugby. My dad played for a local team.
That's where I grew up, Bexley Rugby Club. And in my early days running around the rugby club post his matches, I would always hear Blackheath, Blackheath. And it was always put on such a pedestal and for me I wanted to be part of that.
I was a good rugby player. Growing up wasn't the best.
As I started going through my teenage years at Blackheath, I sort of progressed and become a good player or a better player.
And yeah, I just loved everything that Blackheath had to offer. And for me it was the history, the culture, the players that went before me. It's just, yeah, so much. I've got so much pride and respect for the rugby club and I still stay in touch with a lot of the guys there now even though I'm halfway across on the other side of the world.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: Well, Blackheath is after all one of the top 25, 30 clubs in England based down there in Kent and not too far down the road from the proposed site of the Wasps rugby development in Swanley. We'll wait and see if that actually ever comes to pass.
Probably a number of years away.
But you and I look back to people like Mickey Skinner, obviously legendary rugby players of any era who played for Blackheath. And of course let's not forget John Gallagher, who's a good friend of mine.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: I know John very well.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: Rugby World cup winning, all black at fullback and I crossed swords with him a couple of times and a very hard man to tackle. I distinct to remember Mickey Skinner was so slow. He never Got to me. But John definitely was.
So tell me a little bit about. See, I played in the entire amateur era. You made choices, you loved your rugby and now your journey sort of taken you to get into financial markets. So talk about how that kind of worked in general terms, not mass group yet, because that's specific. But yeah, of course, world strategy. Yeah.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: This is something that I'm quite a big, I guess you could say, advocate for because like a lot of people of my age, my issue, we were, I guess you could say, on the cusp of.
We saw rugby turn into the professional era from a young age and it was a dream for a lot of players my age.
I was 11 when England won the 2003 Rugby World Cup.
At 1112 years of age, you start thinking about life choices. Where do you want to go?
And for me it was all about rugby. I wanted to be a professional rugby player. I was dead set on it.
However, be careful how I word this because I don't want to shatter the dreams of others. But professional rugby isn't always for everyone.
I was very fortunate enough to leave school at 16 and carry out an apprenticeship with Saracens Rugby Club along with Oakland's college in Hertfordshire. And it gave me a taste of professional rugby. Now it is a huge commitment and not always one that a lot of people can handle. I think you have to be super dedicated. Very dedicated.
I am very fortunate that I found, in my opinion, a sweet spot in semi professional rugby. So I played National 1 for 10 years. Since living here in Australia, I've been fortunate enough to be a part of Manly Rugby Club in the Shoot Shield, also semi professional.
And for me, I love how you can have that 9 to 5 job, whether that's in finance, banking, wherever it may be, but also play that competitive rugby training two, three times a week and having that social element of a rugby club as well. I think that's so important.
Whether it's professional, semi professional, grassroots level. I think that's why we all play the game, for the camaraderie.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: And look, I listen to you talk about Manly Rugby Club, which is a beautifully appointed club very close to the coastline. It's that Manly beach is where the England rugby team and most of the supporters all celebrated that World cup win.
I think everyone went into the for a swim that day. But Manly Rugby Club is an iconic rugby club and a number of top Aussie players playing for it. So. But for you, I guess it's.
And remember, anyone who plays top level sport, you're one injury away from Never playing again. So it's a huge theme the life after sport, what business you need to have lined up or at least be qualified for if it goes wrong for you in the sport, which it can do. So you obviously chose financial markets. It's quite a big parallel, isn't it? Quick thinking, pressurized scenarios, teamwork, all those things that go to make a successful rugby team or any sporting team has a direct correlation into the world of trading and team building, et cetera, doesn't it?
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Definitely. And I almost say this almost a bit tongue in cheek but the side of the industry or the side of the finance world that I now sit in is I, I can resemble, there's so many resemblance with, with team sport. With rugby you have a lot of cheeky chaps, there are a lot of light hearted moments. So yeah it's, there are a lot.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Of similarities and, and the, obviously the, you've got the, the big end of the market, the multi billion pound giant financial institutions where I guess one of the challenges, and I know this from my time is how can you make a difference to someone as big as that JP Morgan and then you've got the other end of the scale, a fast growing small company so far such as Mass Group. So how do you, how do you make that decision?
You know, the better comfort in a big company and then a much more dynamic difference. Make difference making because you can make a difference in a small company, can't you?
[00:13:04] Speaker B: That's great, very great. That's a great question for me. I'll sort of take it back a step. I, yeah I did choose the financial industry. I sort of fell into the financial industry because it was something again that my father was always in the industry. He was a security lender for many of the banks in the city of London for 30 plus years.
And when rugby sort of wasn't an option for me as a full time profession I had to find something to do, I had to find a job and I saw the rewards and the success my dad had and I thought I'll give that a go. And I fell into the broken side of things as working for an execution only stockbrokers answering calls, client calls, placing orders over the telephone and I loved it. I, I just, I, I loved the client service side of it, I love what broken had to offer and I, over the next few years I explored a few options and I actually found myself in a role with JP Morgan Asset Management in London.
And going back to my point about how professional rugby might not be for everyone but semi Professional sport or semi professional rugby might be a better option. I found something similar in the financial industry. Although it was great working for JP Morgan and I had this great name on my cv, I didn't feel as valued as I did at a smaller, more bespoke brokerage or a smaller company.
Again, in my opinion it's horses for courses. It was great working at JP Morgan, but what I was doing on a day to day basis, I didn't really see the value I was adding to JP Morgan.
Post JP Morgan. I then went and worked for other, smaller, other smaller firms and you can really see the part you play within that company.
Yeah. So sort of I've digressed a bit there, but I hope that.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think, I think there's an interesting point you make. I guess your sporting skills and your teamship skills can be much more impactful in a smaller company, can't they? Because there aren't that just by sheer force of numbers and the fact that if you bring everyone together in a small organization, you can see the impact of it really quickly in a much bigger organization it can either be missed or take a lot longer or by the time it happens, you're not in the seat. So they're thinking it's someone else's efforts.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: So you get that much more, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but you get much more feeling of making that difference and seeing the benefits of that in a small organization such as a mass group.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: And talk to me about the. One of the things that MAS has a clear mandate to grow is the whole digital world.
I said in a previous podcast that clearly we need to pay attention because Rachel Reeves is trying to pay off some of the UK national debt with bitcoin. But there is an awful lot of growth in the regulation and the acceptance of alternative assets.
So digital assets is a huge piece of where I think the financial markets are going.
And just explain a little bit about how mass is coping with that or dealing with that growth trend.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah, well, especially, especially here in Australia and across the Asia Pacific region. It's, it's, it's huge.
The clients that we have onboarded through mass markets, I'd say, probably, sorry, mass Australia, 90% of them heavily rely on digital assets for funding their, their trading accounts.
It's no secret that, well, in my opinion, digital assets, they're not going anywhere, they're here to stay. And yeah, I think especially again here in apec, it's a necessity.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: And so how do you explain the Risk.
A lot of people, whether it be the dollar, whether it be gold, whether it be other formal currencies, the euro, et cetera, it's a well understood. But the euro wasn't always there. People had to buy into what that looked like.
How do you describe the risk to people who don't, who don't know about digital assets?
[00:17:25] Speaker B: Yeah, that's also a good question. It's a difficult one because we in our position as well, we don't offer financial advice, we're not in a position to offer financial advice so we try and steer away from that. Our clients are professional clients, they have to do their own due diligence, their own kyc. And if it's not something they're comfortable doing, I would hate to sort of talk to that point.
That's why I'm one of the struggle to answer. To be quite honest, I think it's.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: One of the biggest challenges for anyone in the space will be as it grows and grows to control the risk and the regulation of these assets because what people don't know they can sometimes fear.
And that kind of leading me into how you see the future from your standpoint. You worked in a very big company as you described JP Morgan then you've worked in a, or working in a much smaller but faster growing company.
So how do you see the future?
Do you feel that the people going to migrate more from the bigger to the smaller they'll get? I mean customer service and relationship, how do you feel those are drivers of the future?
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Well from two standpoints I think what we see in our space, the CFD space is there's more. There are so many companies starting up every seems every month, every two months there's a new institutional provider, a new retail brokerage.
Now the longevity of those companies are not always worth reporting but there's always more and more new companies. So I feel as if people are stepping away from, from an employee's perspective, I feel as if people are stepping away from the bigger institutions having to go at their own thing or joining those that they know at smaller, more bespoke companies.
In terms of client base, I feel clients probably still favor the bigger institutions, the bigger names but there are so many benefits to using the services of smaller, smaller brokers. Maybe a bit more flexibility, more hand holding in terms of client service.
So yeah, I think there is a definitely a space for the smaller startup entrepreneurs in our space.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: And why Australia, Harry?
What was the big attraction obviously for a company like Mass?
The opportunity to be overseas and exploit growth markets. Is clearly there. You're sitting there. What drove you to Australia?
[00:20:15] Speaker B: So my wife's Australian, so we had a young daughter. Post Covid or back end of 2021 we was in London and it seemed like a good time to move to Australia.
In our opinion, better way of life for children.
I actually had a job with another brokerage when I first arrived here.
I guess I'm. I don't want to portray this in a bad light either, but to my point earlier, I. I felt as if I wasn't adding as much value as I would have liked to at this company.
And then the CEO and founder of Mass Group, Simon Blackledge, the contact of mine many, many years ago in London, he knew I was unhappy. We've always had quite a close relationship anyway, quite an open relationship.
Simon knew I was unhappy and he said, look, I'm expanding. Mass were at the time we were called Bidex and he said we're expanding. Why don't you help me start up the business in Australia, focus on the APAC region. And for me it was an opportunity I couldn't turned down really. So I was already in Australia. That was a perk. But then to be given the opportunity to help start up the entity here was, yeah, life changing.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Well, that's a great, that's a great story. And as obviously, you know, you talked to the top of the call about the opportunity to make it as a pro rugby player. And for every pro rugby player that does make it, there's a huge number that don't and some of them have prepared well for because I talked about one injury away. But you're also one selection decision away from having to think about something else to do. So if you're sitting, imagine I'm an academy player, I'm at the beginning of my rugby career. What advice are you going to give them? Experience you've had? What advice are you going to give those sorts of people at the stages of their career?
[00:22:14] Speaker B: Always have a plan B.
Always think about alternative options because as you said, it can come crashing down very, very quickly.
I left. Well, I was, I carried out my apprenticeship for, well, my up, my equivalent to six form education again with the mindset of being professional rugby player. I was fortunate enough to play some academy games for Saracens and then I was sat down at the end of my sort of education apprenticeship and said thank you for your time, it's been great.
Shook hands and I was just stumped. Where do I go from here? I was going to be a professional rugby player and it didn't happen. And I chased it for two, three years. Afterwards I spent some time playing in New Zealand, North Otago, tried to chase the dream back in the uk, but I quickly sort of again, when I went, had it come back to Blackheath, found myself working the financial industry.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: Getting.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Paid a match fee to play on a Saturday, training two days a week. I thought, this isn't too bad. I can focus on a career, I have a good job, I can have a life outside of rugby. So for me I just sort of thrived at that opportunity. And the fact that it wasn't all about rugby, but still enjoying rugby at the same time.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: I think it's a great balance. And I remember vividly in my kind of penultimate year going to Australia with England on a tour of Australia and Fiji. One week later, having got back after five weeks, we had a seven week rugby World Cup.
So I was away from home for three months, away from the office for three months.
And getting back into the office, the manager felt so sorry for me. He said, why don't you take two weeks off? I said, well, we've been away for 12 weeks.
And so that was the unsustainable nature of amateur rugby turning pro.
And so I think the life after rugby issue is one that's still not been sorted.
And so do you think companies have a role to play?
And I've often said, I know that.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: A lot of companies now are, especially firms in the cities and in the financial industry are partnering with some of these premiership sides or more established rugby clubs to help develop pathways for players. But it's hard to say. But I think a lot of it does fall on the clubs.
Maybe they can set expectations better, I don't know, but I've seen it. I've seen it. Simon. I've been at Blackheath and we've had players come on loan from Wasps or London Welsh when London Welsh were in the premiership. And they're only young lads themselves and you can see that there's not really any backup plan and they haven't gone on to play professional rugby. And it's sad because you think so many. And also on sort of in conjunction with that, you get players that get to the age of 32, 33, 34, they're still playing rugby in the championship, which is not a problem, but they've still got this aspiration of being a professional rugby player.
But then by the time you're 35, 40, probably too late, never too late, but you're on the back foot starting a career. If you need to start a career, if that makes. Makes sense.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's. Look, I think it's a really important point for any individual who engages in sport. And I think.
I do think companies do have responsibility if they get involved in sponsoring sport. If sport is a big sporting ethos, big part of their world, they need to show some commitment. And that's something that is too sporadic in my book, and you've kind of highlighted that as well. So the message to anyone indulging in any sport, you've got to have a plan B because you never know what's going to happen.
Another kind of piece of our sport that is right at the beginning of that journey is the women's game.
And whether it be in sevens or in 15s, you know, we've got the Rugby World cup here over in England and Australians have got some top women rugby players. I saw some of them playing sevens.
Is there any PR around that in Australia at the moment? In fact, there's a Women's Rugby World cup taking place. Or have we still got to grow that awareness?
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Well, women's sport here is massive as well, and I'm sure it is the world over. It's become bigger and bigger. But rugby in general, for the women's sport here, league, sevens, union, it gets as much recognition now as the men's game, in my opinion. You see it on TV advertisements. It's. It's brilliant. I haven't seen so much about the Rugby World cup, maybe still to come. But, yeah, the women's game here is impressive. I've got two young daughters myself and dare I say it, I'd be. I'd be very eager for them to lace up the boots one day, especially with the opportunities there is here for. For women's rugby. And it's interesting, I do think, sorry, excuse me, A lot of the ladies here that play, they'll go from league to union to sevens and they managed to squeeze it all in, which is very impressive.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: I think it's. We reflect on this seminal moment in time, actually, and you know, the Wallaroos, as they're called, isn't it, that they've come over here and we know they're going to be competitive because we've seen a lot of their sevens players.
But following on from the Euros, which was very high profile, which the lionesses won, the fact that the new cricket franchises encouraging women's cricket all around the world, and now you've got the Rugby World cup, they're going to put 40,000 people into the Stadium of Light in Sunderland, which you could only have.
You would have laughed if someone had suggested that was going to happen. And the rugby World cup final is sold out before the tournament started. They've sold 82,000 tickets. So it's an incredible moment in time for a sport at a completely different journey, stage of journey than the one you and I played. You played professionally. I didn't, but it's, it's an exciting thing. And England are expected to win. That's the, that's the, the bit I don't like. Because you got this pressure, which is one on expectation in your home country and you look, England, you can't.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Similar. Similar thing for the men's side. Right. In 2015, we didn't make it out the group stages.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Well, exactly. And I lost in a World cup final against Australia in 1991, which Mr. Campisi would never let me forget. So.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Was that October 91?
[00:29:16] Speaker A: That was October 1991. That's right.
[00:29:21] Speaker B: I think it was the week before I was born because there's a picture of my dad holding me as a baby and all of a sudden he's got a wallabies jersey on. So he quickly switched switch sides.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Yes, well, we got our own back 12 years later. It did take quite a while, though, so. Yeah, but look, as you've already said, you're in the middle of a, you know, a sporting paradise in Australia.
And if you had to sort of look at Crystal Ball five years on and, you know, Mass Group growing again and again and again, I mean, there's so much to go for.
This is a company that's ranked the 32nd quickest growing companies in the UK. But it sounds like the opportunity from an overseas perspective is also incredibly significant in your region and the way that clients and investors are behaving in a new world of AI, of digitization, of alternative assets.
And you're part of that story.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, one I'm very, very proud of, actually. And in five years time, I'd like to think that we've expanded again, more offices, more different locations, jurisdictions.
Yeah. This industry is not going anywhere. It's just about evolving and adapting with it as it grows. So I think at Mass Group, we're very good at doing that, very good at moving with the times, adapting, looking at ways to improve our offering, improve our service. So, yeah, it's exciting times.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: And look, everything you just said there is what all good businesses should be doing. Damage, testing their model, looking to grow, looking to improve.
I think that's where the Springboks are going to be for this weekend in Cape Town trying to improve against Australia or else people will really will be calling a turn, perhaps after all of that questioning and the Eddie Jones fiasco. Was it a fiasco or was he a visionary? No doubt he'll be claiming credit for the turnaround in Australian rugby and you'll be approached in 2027 with a lot of optimism. So a split household there, the Fry household, you know, a true blue English supporter and obviously an Aussie fan, so.
But there we are. I'm sure you'll deal with that.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Well, I'm very pro. I'm very pro. Eddie Jones, which is a lot of people are surprised to hear that, but for me, he just screams old school rugby coach. And you can see he gets the best out of players. Bit of a task master by the sounds of it, but yeah, I'd have loved to have played under Eddie.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: Well, Eddie, who knows? Perhaps I'll drag Eddie on to talk to us about his philosophy of coaching and he's definitely a very amusing guy and I've only ever seen him from a distance, but.
But look, Harry, thank you for sharing those thoughts with us. And we look ahead to the Rugby Women's World cup and a Rugby World cup winner will be joining us next week to talk about her experiences and how she feels the game has changed. So that's to come.
So that's it from Haller's playbook this week. Thank you to Harry Fry, thank you to Mass Group, and we'll see you again soon.
