Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Well, hi everybody and welcome to another edition of hala's Playbook. And here we are. The Autumn Internationals are over.
England have been rolled in less than two days by the Aussies in Australia. I mean, honestly, I feel so sorry for the 60,000 that didn't even make it to day three.
So sport continues to be play a huge part in the. And of course stock markets are all over the place.
AI is at the center of everyone's thoughts as our digital assets, precious metals and of course that's where Mass Group come in. I'd like to thank them for sponsoring this podcast, Multi asset solutions in digital, foreign exchange and mass funds strategies.
So with that background, I've got great pleasure and a privilege to welcome Ed Jackson Eduardo I've known for many, many years and ex professional rugby player who played a Bath London Welsh Dragons Wasps.
Might have missed one or two, but as importantly, a great family friend and someone who's really revolutionized his life for a very, very amazing reason, which we're gonna hear about.
But Ed, first of all, welcome.
You're off on your travels for a few months, so we managed to catch you before you go.
It's been a pretty busy year. Just, just tell us what you've. You've just last done and we just talked about it, climbing in Milton. Just, just give me that as an opening shot and then we'll, we'll move into things less amazing.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Thanks, Alex.
So what we were just chatting about is in August, I went to Kyrgyzstan to try and climb a mountain that had never been climbed before.
I didn't realize until I got into this world that there were still mountains that were unclimbed, but there are a few in Kyrgyzstan, some in Greenland and then a load in Antarctica, but they're a bit more difficult to get to.
So I went there with the ambition of becoming the first person with a disability to ever get a first ascent of a mountain. So it's kind of to put a flag in the ground for accessible adventure and the disabled community in the adventure space. It's quite an ambitious challenge, obviously, but we were there for a month.
Also took some beneficiaries of our charity out for the first half of that trip.
And in the last week, we managed to summit a peak that was 4800 meters high that had never been climbed before. And we were also fundraising for a children's orphanage over there for kids with disabilities. And we asked them to name the peak and they named it Nadezh Peak, which means Hope Peak. So forever there will be Hope Peak on the maps in the middle of Kyrgyzstan. And yeah, symbolic of sort of our whole disabled community in that space because up until now it's all been done by professional mountaineers, really. And then I've managed to wobble up one. So, yeah, it was a good month.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: I mean, it is quite phenomenal and for anyone listening in, it just goes, wow, what have I just walked into? There's a lot of. There's a huge story behind this, which we're going to come on to, but another, Another day in the life of Ed Jackson for sure. But first of all, because obviously you've got such a background in professional rugby and you know, we've, we've just reached a kind of a midpoint where people have now started to look towards the World Cup. And how did you see the autumn internationals? You know, there were some young thrusters putting, making their way forward, you know, arise Sir Henry, the Pollock phenomenon and South Africa winning games with 14 players, apparently quite easily. So how did you see the whole autumn international scene?
[00:04:06] Speaker A: Well, from an England perspective, I think, you know, looking at the results, it's been a very good autumn. I think obviously coming away with a full set of wins was, was the ambition. I think it was actually probably not. It wasn't expected, but I know internally they wouldn't have been happy with anything less. So I don't, I wouldn't sit here and say it was a massive surprise, although, you know, you've got some big stumbling blocks in there. Albeit, you know, the All Blacks in particular, but Australia as well and Argentina probably ran as closest in the end. But I think on the whole they'll be really happy because the squad seems to be evolving brilliantly. Like we ended the game at the weekend with a very young team on the pitch. The average age the squad is, is young. They've got decent depth and as you said, it's all building towards a World Cup. Like all of these tournaments are just part of a World cup cycle. So you're looking ahead in two years time and I think they're in a pretty good position.
That being said, like you, I mean, to come on to South Africa.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: They were frightening again. I think it's just.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: They'Re just a force at the moment and the depth that they've got, but I think just the size of them in general, they've shown that they can play in loads of different ways to win the games, which is really impressive. But the main thing for me is, as you know, Al, as rugby is all about momentum and the way that they can just take momentum back by reverting to physics is kind of unfair compared to a lot of other sides. You know, the size of them. We talk about the bomb squad but to be able to what they did to Ireland scrum at the weekend just shouldn't be happening it in tier one rugby. And it's just, it shows how far ahead of the game they are. I think physically at the moment they're not unbeatable, no teams unbeatable on their day. But I think if England are going to beat the likes of South Africa at the World cup, there still needs to be a fair bit of evolving to be done, especially up front.
But you know, from an English sector, the depth looks good across the board. I think.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: Max a Jomo stuck his hat, stuck his hand up really well. I just want to bring that up because obviously he's a Bath player at the weekend. Really impressive performance. I think 12 is probably has been the question mark for England. The other positions seem to be settling in or have more depth there. I'd still like to see, you know, I would say this because I'm an 8, but I would probably like to see albeit how good the players are in our back row. Maybe a bit more of a balance with a bigger ball carrier.
I think we missed that against Argentina with Ollie Lawrence not there and maybe just a bigger thumper in the back row somewhere.
But all in all it's looking good.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: I mean, let's face it, the two best ball playing number eights, both in France. Go on. They, you know, the Willis brothers in a way. So. But I always remember you as a particularly athletic ball playing number eight. So no doubt you're. You've got that in mind and that's for sure. But I agree with you and I think the, the other thing which I, I'm asking really anybody who's got the level of experience you've got in rugby that the replacement strategies, you know, you referenced it in the Arnold game that on comes the bomb squad and it's the game changes and it's. It was the one thing that Billy Beaumont said he wanted to change and he never did. And so now we've got a game within the game in the funny sort of way, haven't we there? I mean, what do you make of. Given his, you know, that younger generation, Henry Pollock hasn't actually started any rugby but he, he comes on and makes big impacts. One day you'll have to start a game and we'll see how good he is after an hour Being moved around the park, as you say, very exciting.
And you, you have seen so many of these players develop in the last number of years. And this is the Premiership, isn't it? Or is it? I mean, you played a lot of prem rugby.
Do you think it's the Premiership that's producing these international players?
[00:08:06] Speaker A: I think so. I mean it has to be right.
You come on as a player with your week in, week out domestic rugby. So if the league's not there and.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: We'Ve seen it cause problems in Wales, you know, and just in other leagues where the standard of rugby isn't as competitive on a week by week basis and over time that takes its toll on developing younger players. And the Premiership, you know, it's had its ebbs and flows, but over the last 10, 15 years on the whole it's been a soup like it's been a really competitive league. There hasn't been too many easy games week in, week out. And I think that is, that's bringing through a good crop of young players now who are able to step up to international rugby.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: A lot better than, you know, if they didn't have that, if they didn't have that challenge on a, on a week by week basis, I think that the players that are playing in the teams that are competing at the sharp end of the Champions Cup. So we've seen a lot of saints boys come through, obviously a couple of Bath boys come through more recently, but the Sarris players that came through, I think that big knockout rugby.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: That big competitive knockout rugby, especially against, you know, the best French teams or your Leinsters and that's giving you there or thereabouts international experience, level of rugby and without that. So you look at Wales again, I'm saying this because I played there, you know, your Scarlets, your Ospreys, Dragons, whatever, who never really, the youngsters coming through will never play a game of rugby like that unless they step out onto the pitch of Wales.
You're at a disadvantage straight away.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: No, it's fascinating and I think the. I'd also, because you've, you've done your fair share of commentating.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: On the, in the rugby world, what did you mean? And because your demographic is, is a demographic that, that the game is wanting to retain, attract and younger.
I want to just ask your view of the Women's World cup because obviously it's dominated the year in many different ways.
Do you see it as a torch paper to sort of light the kind of interest of the younger demographic?
Because it's what we need to do as a game?
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely.
I think it has done.
We were seeing sellout crowds at Twickenham. You know, I've been working at, I've been working at Twickenham for the last over the, over the autumn nations and working with some of the World cup winners, some of the ladies there and you know, they're, they're known faces around the ground now. You know, I could have walked around with 50 cap internationals and of course I know who they were before, but none of the general rugby public who'd come to watch the men play would know. And now they're getting stopped by everyone asking for photos and autographs. And lots of young girls as well have got posters of them on the wall and I haven't seen the actual figures, but I'm sure, I'm sure participation at the grassroots level has grown immensely. And I think what we need now is England to follow through with what they've been doing this autumn, what they've been doing for the last two years, and, you know, hopefully win a World cup, but actually bring through some of these young stars like the Henry Pollocks. You know, Marrow is obviously a bit of a global star now, but make some more profiles out of some of these players. You know, you've got your Joe Marlows, your Ellis Genges, and really promote that side of, of the game because I know definitely when you played, but even when I played, there's always that tall poppy syndrome of like, it's a humble sport, don't stick your head above the parapet, you get your legs chopped out and all of those sorts of things. But you look to the States and they build their games and their fan bases around individual icons, not around the sport as a who. And that's what youngsters are after. They want those Instagram personalities, they want those Tiktoks, they want those big celebrations, they want crazy hairstyles. And I think you can't deny the fact that that's the route that works to engage and bring a younger audience into the sport. And if you're not feeding it from the bottom up, you're just creating yourself a problem further down the line. I think we're already seeing that like, we're seeing the damage that not having that probably for the last 10, 15, 20 years has caused. And that's turning now, I think, because of social media. And we can, we could bang on for hours about the damages of social media, but, you know, I am all for Pollock walking on with his blonde hair and doing these ridiculous pre match warm ups and Doing these huge celebrations, not because I would personally do it, but because I think you can then see all the kids turning up in blonde wigs to England games that might not necessarily have gone before. And that can only be good for the sport.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's spot on. And I think we'll see when we. I think the out here in South Africa, you know, pick and pay. The supermarket now sponsor the Springboks and you can go and buy the cards, the cards of the players from the supermarket, you know. And of course, they don't have very many Sierra Kolises, so all the kids are racing around with all the other cards trying to find Sir Kolisi's card.
And then they're trading them and swapping them. And then there's the Golden Rassie, the Rassie Erasmus gold card. And if you get that, you have a chance of meeting him at one of the test matches.
It's exactly what you're talking about, just bringing it to life. They appear every day on tv. Every single day, a Springbok rugby player appears on telly because it is a cult out here.
People are dancing in the streets. You know, it's very. And obviously they're double world champions, but it's where we need to go. And I completely agree with you. I don't think I could have done half of what Henry gets up to. Histrionically. I think I'd have been laughed out of the room. But it's got to be good. And everyone's talking about him, you know, over here. They're all talking about it.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: We've talked about you as a pro rugby player and, and presenting rugby and your perspective. And you've also founded a charity, Millimeters to Mountains, and that's where the, the climbing, the mountain comes from, to a degree. And you're a motivational speaker and it's all come about, you know, and we perhaps done things that way around, but deliberately, because I want people to understand that, you know, there was a pro rugby player doing stuff and then it all changed. And, you know, you are a statistic. Swimming pool accidents happen.
When you broke your neck. So you've talked about it a lot. There's a film, you've written a book. But just against the backdrop of what we've talked about, all that rugby, all those perspectives, suddenly life changes. So I know you've told the story, but just go through that a little bit as to not necessarily accidents do happen.
And I saw you in your hospital bed very soon afterwards. I'm not sure whether you were moving anything at that point. I don't think you were. It might have been a little toe.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: But just reflect back on that moment in time and what that's done.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: I mean, I still sit here now and I can't really. You know, we were chatting before and we touched on it, like, what I've just been to, doing Kyrgyzstan, climbing, first ascents, and it all just still seems a bit bizarre and a bit of a whirlwind because at the time, like, I thought my life was over, you know, I mean, literally and metaphorically, I got resuscitated three times and then after a week in hospital of not having any movement or sensation return from below the shoulders, I was told I was never going to walk again.
And I was just hoping to get using my arms and hands back to be independent. And, you know, that is obviously a hard thing to hear for anyone, but I think coming from professional sport and being a rugby player, my identity was completely wrapped up in my physicality. It was like the only way I got social status or respect or anything through school, in my eyes. And I think this is the danger, we see it all the time now with. I mean, I'm a trustee of Restart, who looks after all the professional rugby players in England. And that transition out of the sport, there's a real struggle and a real mental health problem, mental health issue in the game, but also after the game because of that identity, people relating what they do to who they are. And I massively felt that.
But in a weird way, I had everything removed and I had to go on this mission to, like, work out all right, who really. Who really was I? And if I wasn't a rugby player, then what could I offer the world? And.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: The journey I've ended up going on has been born out of a complete lack of purpose or a feeling of lack of purpose for well over a year of, like, I just felt like a burden on everyone. I can feed myself for a long time, can get to toilet for myself, can move around and all of these sorts of things. And I think that was very hard for a young, proud bloke. It'd be hard for anyone. And then I remember the big turning point is when we. We hobbled up Snowden after a year and to raise money for Restart, who'd support me up until that point. And.
And there were lots of people who came to support who I didn't even know because I opened it up on this blog that I'd started and they were saying how me sharing my journey was really Helping them.
And I just remember thinking, getting that glimmer or a feeling of purpose, back of life, maybe I could be some use in this life. And I kind of, you know, to say, you know, I kind of said to myself, then if enough good can come from this situation for me, diving the wrong end of a swimming pool for other people, then by definition I can change it from a bad thing that happened to a good thing that happened. And I just sit down.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: You talked about hobbling up Snowden.
Yeah, we move from not being able to move at all to, you know, arms possibly, and then. But there's a huge, you know, from get to that point to hobbling up Snowdon means you've got to got out of bed, learned to walk, worked out that you could.
So from there to hobbling up Snowdon was also a massive move, was it not, and challenge that you had to go through?
[00:18:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it was, it was. I mean, the first thing was just trying to wiggle my toe, obviously. And, you know, that was.
That was looking unlikely. And actually, after seven days, I was told that wasn't going to happen. And I just remember literally, like in very Kill Bill moment, if anyone's seen the film, staring at my toes, trying to will them to move. And.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Eventually, amazingly, 36 hours after I was told that my toe flicked. What transpired is they thought it was a complete injury, but it was actually. I was in the spinal shock for so long because the trauma was so great that it revealed there was still a connection. And then I just sat on this mission to see how much movement I could get back. I never actually thought at that point I'd be walking again. But to cut a very long story short, after about six weeks, they stood me for the first time out of my wheelchair. After three months, three and a half months, I left hospital still in a wheelchair, moved back in with my parents, but I was starting to take steps and using a frame.
After nine months, I got rid of the wheelchair. And then I wanted to set myself a challenge to try and.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: Pay back the charity that supported me, but also inspire other people in hospital that if they'd been given a guarded prognosis, that maybe that doesn't have to be the case. And I was just spent four months in a ward surrounded by people who had lost hope. And a lot of that was based on what they've been told. And I'm not saying what you're told is completely wrong, but if you don't try or if you don't, you know, believe, then often it won't happen. And I was fortunate. I had an amazing support network around me. Family, friends, rugby community. Like I had something to try and get better for. A lot of people didn't have that. I used to take all those things for granted. I had family and friends in my room every day, including yourself. And then other people had. Didn't have visitors for four months. And, you know, that's the other thing that's been tied into all of this. And I think my attitude now and the way my life has unfolded is just a massive sense of gratitude and perspective over how fortunate I am to be able to do any of these things in the first place. Even though I am still limping around and I've still got bladder, bowel problems, temperature regulation issues, my hands don't work properly. All of these things, like, I shouldn't be in this position, I shouldn't even be here. So it is just a massive perspective shift. Something like this gives. And that gives you also this sort of sense of.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Whilst I'm here, I want to make the most of my life, because it's not a given that you're going to be here tomorrow. I survived 10 years of professional rugby and then it was a Sunday afternoon diving into wrong under a swimming pool that nearly finished it all. So I know my mum tears her hair out, the fact that I now go and hobble around in mountains and hang myself off cliffs and stuff, but it's not about just like leaning into risk, it's just about trying to maximize my life. And one thing that did do is give me the confidence to go after stuff that I previously wouldn't thought I'd be capable of, like writing a book, like climbing a mountain, like starting a charity, like starting a business. All of that. Before, I would have been like, well, I can't. You can't do that. You're the rugby player. Well, right. Have you got to think you could, you know, the imposter syndrome. And I'm like, why not, like, give it a go? And on the whole, you know, they haven't all succeeded, but it's. They're moving in the right direction and I'm very grateful in that respect for having, having that psychological shift and having that realization. And you hear about post traumatic stress, but also post traumatic growth. And I'm not alone in this. I know plenty of other people who had this similar realization. I'm very fortunate to work on the Paralympics.
I've done the last three Paralympics working with Channel 4 and that is full of people like me and the attitude I've got. And a lot of them will point it back to that moment of trauma or when they acquired their disability, that their. Their whole life, in hindsight, changed for the better, because you can't change what happens to you, but you can try and take the positives from it and use. Use it to your advantage. And one of the advantages it gives you is those psychological shifts of perspective, gratitude, and a kind of attitude of, like, why not? Like, let's. Let's get after it and see what. See what life can offer while. While we're still here.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: And I think the. Anyone who's. I mean, like, many years ago, I was the patron of hell for heroes for a number of years. And anyone listening to this who's gone through that will recognize what you're saying, that people had no hope. And those who bucked that trend and actually went out and made change their life and worked out there was a lot more to go for. We'll recognize what you're talking about, but there's still a massive shift to going again, to going back to staring up a mountain to show you could. That, you know, I don't want this to define me. And you get fit enough and able enough to go up a mountain, and then you founded the charity Millimeters to Mountains. So was it on one of these. Was it halfway up Snowden, you thought, you know what?
Why don't I turn this into something that gives people hope and inspiration under the heading of get up and up a mountain?
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it was. It was kind of like I did Snowden. I was like, I don't know what this is gonna look like, but I need to. I felt purpose from helping other people. And also I loved how hard it was and the challenge. And I think being outdoors and a lot of the stuff that I'd missed from rugby, really, I think, you know, we. We spent our whole life outdoors, and I didn't really appreciate that until I was locked in a hospital room for four months. And also being able to physically challenge myself, I couldn't do. I couldn't move enough to get out of breath. So for, like, nearly a year. And now all of a sudden, I've done something really hard, and I found that rewarding, so I just wanted to go higher. So I ended up in the Alps the next year, and it was actually on these trips where we were fundraising for different charities that. And I was encouraging people to come with me that I realized a lot of healing was going on, not just for myself physically and psychologically, but in the group, everyone was opening up and talking to each other. More strangers they'd just met. There was something about walking and being outdoors and being in nature that was incredibly healing. And that's what sparked the idea for the charity. So initially I just wanted to raise money for other causes and I was like, well actually if this can work for me.
Being outside, challenging myself, but also the support network. I think a massive thing that I realized during that first, you know, first year, first couple of years was how fortunate I was to have this amazing support network. But also that so many people didn't have that and I wanted to try and pay that forward to other people. And that's the real power of millimeters to mountains. We help young adults who have been through trauma. We use the outdoors and adventure to help rehabilitate them. There's loads of life coaching, retraining, therapy. It's quite an in depth three year program to really turn someone's life around. But actually the real power is the community and the support network around the individual. And a lot of that comes from the other beneficiaries that are in the program. And I think going through trauma, it can be quite isolating. And you think it's just you and you struggle with your demons and all of those things. Then all of a sudden you're surrounded by a lot of other people with shared experience. Even if the root cause of the trauma is different and you're talking about it and you're opening up about it and then it goes full circle to you actually start using your trauma to help other people and you reframe the thing that was only seen as negative to now being used as a positive. And when I sit there and see the third years with their arm, one of the year ones who's just arrived, helping them from the experiences that they've gained from going through that trauma.
That's kind of note when we know our job's complete and it's a very magical process. So just, it just replicates something that I was fortunate enough to realize myself through being outdoors and the support network I had. And yeah, we just pay that forward and it's working amazingly well.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: And you don't all have to. I mean, not everyone has to climb a mountain obviously, because there are plenty of people who are not able to or may not even want to, but you go on a long walk, you'll go on a. So there's lots of things that people can do that are accessible to them. You don't have to put on a rucksack and severe weather gear and do what you do thousands of meters up. So there's a lot of. A lot of activities people can engage in on that.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. We have a full, you know, we have a huge range of people that are part of the program, but also the supporters of that. And we have big open events in the uk, from wellness weekends to.
To accessible, like psychopath routes for people in wheelchairs. But it's more about the community and being outdoors. But actually the challenge element is quite important.
We obviously have the wellness side, which doesn't involve challenge. It might do if you've got to get in an ice bath or something like that, or even I find breath work and sitting still for an hour quite challenging. But there's a lot of people there who want to achieve something that they never thought they could. So with our Global Challenges is a full. There's a full variety from climbing mountains with ice axes and crampons for people who have got that physical capability or want to try it, to long walks through Tuscany, whatever it might be.
And a lot of stuff we do in the UK as well, through our Together Outdoors program, which is more about the community and the support network of those individuals. So when someone goes through trauma, it's not just the individual is anyone who cares for them as well. And that's a much bigger group of people. But they're often there going, well, it's not about me, it's about them. So they. They don't feel like they can say they're struggling. So we like to connect the support networks as well so that they can support each other too. And often the best way to help the individual is to help the people around them, because the people, like I said, my support network was great. The people with the strongest support networks often recover the best.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: That is very insightful. I'm not sure that's conventional wisdom yet, but I absolutely think it should be. And if you look back at the fact that many of your peer group within the rugby world who didn't go through the trauma you've been through when they finished playing, they have to face up to the fact. And if they haven't been preparing well, and I think in your generation.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: The preparation wasn't that good, I may venture, you know, my experience, I've been in administration in rugby, I haven't felt that we've looked after our players enough or well enough through their careers and out the other side. But you got forced to do it, which, because of what happened to you, and then you've turned that into something as you've described. And then you founded a charity and you do a lot of speaking engagements.
I know you're very in demand with companies and, you know, the business connection here and the values that you bring to that are, you know, hugely significant, I would imagine. But how do you find your experience with businesses when you go and talk to them and they bring you in and you reflect on it, how does that work for you? For you? And what value do you think they're extracting as well through their questions?
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been, it's something I really enjoyed doing and it started off just, you know, speaking at hospitals because I made quite an unprecedented recovery and then schools and speaking about, you know, just, just sharing my story is a piece of inspiration. But over the last few years it's become a lot more sort of in depth and working closely with businesses around dealing with change. Positive mindset, a lot of team, teamwork stuff and resilience, obviously. But actually I probably had imposter syndrome at the start when I started being asked to go and speak at the likes of Microsoft and Facebook and stuff. I'm like, how am I going to speak to these sort of C suite leaders, these massive businesses? But there is a lot that's really relevant as you know, better than anyone, between sport and, and business and then also between mountaineering and teams in extreme environments and operating in those environments, but then also building a team around you when you're rehabilitating and the mindset elements amongst it. So it's evolved into delivering keynotes for teams, whether they're going through change or they just need some motivation to actually working closely with individuals on a mentoring basis and just coming from it from a slightly different perspective, I suppose, rather than a business coach in inverted commas who's speaking from just the experience of business.
But then over time, over the last few years I have had some experience in business, you know, not like big corporate finance, but starting the chart, starting a charity, starting a rum brand, like all of these things, growing businesses I've now realize and can tie in the sort of the things that are beneficial or the things that are impactful in a more educated way, I suppose. Or I can understand their side of the coin a little bit better. But most of it just comes down create to creating the right environment for the business to succeed. I'm not going in there and telling them what they should be investing in or how they should be structuring stuff. It's more mindset pieces.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Do you find when.
Because you've got such a remarkable story.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: It's tempting just people to sit back and listen.
Do you get.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: The right sort of feedback, do you think? I mean when businesses, because businesses want to get value out of someone like you coming in, describe it as you have.
Do you find that they're all in listening mode or it ends up being a real sort of two way discussion about how they can relate these things into their world and to extract the things that you've experienced.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: I mean that tends to come down to how long you're working with them for. And if it's over a series of days, if I'm going in to deliver a 45 minute keynote and they just want a piece of inspiration at the end of a seminar or whatever it might be. Or they want to give their employees a certain team of theirs, a kick up the ass with a sense of perspective when they're complaining about certain elements of the job that maybe that they're losing sight on. You know, the things that they should be grateful for in the first place. But actually the things that I enjoy more is working with the business over a longer period of time and doing multiple sessions and really dialing in on certain elements of it. Me understanding the business more, spending time with some of the leaders to understand what their problems are within the business and how my experience might be able to come at it from a slightly different direction to try and unstick things.
And then the interesting one is like, which I've been doing a bit more of recently is the mentoring side with individuals in the leadership teams. Because I think just being able to be a sounding board for people and give them maybe a slight, a bit of advice from a slightly different direction or just get them to think about something slightly differently. And often that will be. I'll be thinking back to when they're explaining problems, whether it's within a team or personalities or not being able to engage their employees or whatever it is. Of the best sports teams I've been involved with, the best coaches, what were they like? A lot of it is actually I'm drawing on stuff from being in extreme environment and the best mountain leaders, the best dynamics within a team, why some of the teams worked and some of them didn't.
And coming in from that perspective too. But then also the thought processes that I developed to try and keep a positive mindset when everything was falling apart around me through my recovery.
And I think some of that at the time was very subconscious. And then since I've drilled into it through writing the book, writing my second Book and now studying more philosophy and psychology side of things, I can see a lot of those elements of the defense mechanisms that I went through to be resilient in inversed commas are just grounded in quite sound psychology. So some of the things that I found useful then I still find very useful now. Whether it's having to climb a mountain or dealing with market shifts in the booze industry or whatever it might be like it's all relevant, you know, it's all, it all has crossover.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:44] Speaker A: So I enjoy all sides of it. And also we've also taken a few, a few teams to the mountains, which is great. So coming out to Chamonix, running a chalet and getting them up some hills and pushing them a little bit more and putting those. And then in the evening getting around a table and having some quite in depth conversations, getting to know each other a lot better, all with the end result of trying to create a culture and environment that just operates better under stress in the workplace or and in particular under change in the workplace. Because we know everything's.
A lot of those changes we don't have any control over. And there is a lot of change, a lot of economic forces that are shifting around. So how do we keep a mindset that allows us to thrive through those times rather than just try and survive?
And you know, a lot of that is coming down to controlling the controllables. All of the usual buzzwords, but being able to get those things stick, it's often helpful to be able to come from them at a slightly different direction. Rather than just telling people you need to be more resilient or you need to stop thinking about that and thinking about this. It's using examples, metaphors and, and actually then experience putting people in those situations, that tends to help things land a bit better.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: And it empowers them too, doesn't it? I remember that it's, it's remarkable listening to how advanced this whole thinking is. And I remember in my last year, in fact, I just retired at ubs. I've been playing international rugby for a number of years and my bosses, I thought they were going to fire me actually. And they came in and said, how do we get this group of high performers on this trading floor to work together? How do we do it?
Because how did you get baths to be or not? How did you get them to be. But you operated within that, that cup league winning side and you've won two grand slams with England, but you all came from different places. How did you do it?
And part of My. Other than getting those teamwork things going, I just said, you know, get them out of their environment, let's all go.
[00:36:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: Those days off sites didn't happen. We all ended up in a. Not mistake, definitely because of me. But we had a weekend of a bit of early doors mentoring and then we got in the bar and we got to know each other, had a few drinks and here we are many years on. Those philosophies are incredibly important and all I was doing was relating a few stories about pre match rugby and obviously yours are rooted in something far more fundamental. But you did talk about a book and.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: Obviously the first that you did and just the whole concept of writing the book is that.
Was that part catharsis? Has it turned into something more to begin with? Was it I need to just get this down on paper and say it exactly how I want it to be said and have it printed.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: And.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: There was never an intention to have a book, you know, it was actually a coping mechanism whilst I was in hospital. Initially I was writing in the evening when the hospital room emptied and the distractions of my mates and the family around me had had gone away. It was. I was getting stuff down on paper so that I could try and fall asleep because as you'll know, the mind's got a nasty trick of focusing on the negative. And there was so much negative going on at the time I needed to try and offload it. And it wasn't until I woke up one afternoon and one of my mates was reading through all of my private diary entries that which I was very.
Which at the time I was, you know, angry about but also petrified about because that sort of guttural instinct of being a bloke and not showing any vulnerability, especially being a rugby player, because you kind of talk from a young age, don't even let the opposition know if you're injured. Which is like a dangerous narrative when you're talking about mental health. And, you know, we all know the stats of suicide being the biggest killer of men under 40. And a lot of that is the inability to show vulnerability at an early stage and allowing it to manifest to the point of it being a serious problem. And I felt that firsthand. But of course, then he told Lois, my wife, that I'd written this stuff, she read it and she was like, you need to make some of this public because it might help someone once one day. I really didn't want to do that, but, you know, she's in charge. So I did, but I didn't. And I didn't see any of the, I didn't, I didn't, I couldn't even look at any of the responses. But after, even after a week, there were all of a sudden 10,000 people following this blog, which was mind blowing. And it wasn't just people saying that me sharing stuff was helping them. It was also people getting in contact to give me practical advice. People that I didn't know but had also been in a similar situation to me. And that, or this gave me this outlet of people that I could speak to and be open and honest about how I was really feeling. So I didn't want to tell my family that I, you know, I thought about not wanting to be here anymore last night. You know, I already felt guilty enough what I'd done to them emotionally by breaking my neck and seeing how it was traumatizing them too. But I had these strangers then who could relate to it and say, yeah, I felt like that too. Don't worry, just time, Time's a healer. And all of these practical bits of advice.
And it taught me the power of vulnerability as a healing tool. So I carried on writing and I carried on this blog. And actually it was about a year and a half after I left hospital, I had about 250,000 words worth of blog posts and I got contacted by Harper Collins for a big publisher in the uk saying, can you turn this into a book?
Because it's a real day by day account of someone going through a life changing process rather than my thoughts of it. And it was funny, looking back through the blog post, I can even remember half of it or my thoughts of that day had changed. But I had it in, I had the proof, because I wrote it that evening.
And of course I said no. Initially I was like, I'm not an author, I can't write a book. But a very clever literary agent called Bev James said to me, you could give all the proceeds to your charity.
Which I couldn't obviously say no.
So I went about turning 250,000 words down, bringing it down to 60,000 words and sort of weaving more of a narrative through it. So it wasn't just diary entries. And I was still scared that no one would read it and it was going to be pointless. But at that point I had that attitude of like, why not? Let's give it a go? And amazingly, it became a Sunday Times bestseller. So I kind of proved myself wrong there. But it also taught me that, okay, if I can do that, what else can I do? And it also taught me like the amount of people who are sat there thinking, I really want to do something, but there's no way I'll be able to do it. I think most of the people who end up doing the stuff we want to do or get to the places we want to be aren't necessarily more capable.
It's just that they've got the balls, if you like, or they've just got the naivety to go for it.
And I think it's much better in life to go for something and be proved you can't do it than just die wondering. I think when we. When that day comes, you know, you're more likely going to be regretting the things you haven't done than the things you have. Like, get out there, be scared, make mistakes. And my second book's just come out, which. Which was more the other way around. That was writing 60,000 words rather than bringing it down from 250.
But it's become a process that I really enjoy, you know. And if you ask, my English teacher wrote me a letter whilst I was in hospital, actually halfway through writing these blogs and he signed it off. I never knew you were listening. So that shows how much of an English student I was. So anyone listening? It's not the. This isn't something that I would. I didn't go to Union do English literature at all. It was just a practice that I continued doing and found that I could do it. And now. Now it's something I really enjoy.
[00:42:24] Speaker B: I suspect. I suspect.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: The. What you wrote down and the reason Harper Collins is so interested and it's become bestseller, because it's real, you know, and you wrote it and you didn't sit and sort of prescribe an hour.
You wrote when you felt you needed to write and you wanted to say what you really honestly felt. And I'm sure that that is what people really, really value and want to want to understand because it reflects on their own, potentially their own situation, perhaps in one sense or another in a much less dramatic way.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: And obviously you're doing a huge amount for other people, which is.
And is this the future?
How do you see the next number of years?
Because you've already achieved so much. I'm going to say a new life, but something that became a catalyst for you.
What's next?
[00:43:26] Speaker A: It's a good question.
After this latest expedition, it's weird. It's the first time I've come back, so I've got a few plates spinning and one of them is the Adventure World, the work I do with Berghaus and climbing mountains and I'm helping them adapt kit for people with disabilities and that's kind of more the sharp end of the mountaineering. M2M is the bulk of my passion, the charity, but I'm a trustee, I don't take a salary from it. That's very much a passion project.
I've got Rum Brand which is again a passion project at the moment that's more of a moonshot. Start off, start up with my mates, but learning a lot from it. I do a bit of TV media work, including the books and stuff. So I'm working next gigs at the Winter Paralympics in March when I come back from my travels, which I really enjoy. But again, I just, I don't know if being a, being a media professional and that being my sole, you know, route is, is what I would want to do or what I'd be capable of doing.
[00:44:24] Speaker A: And so in any one of those strands, like I'm not sure which one I should potentially lead into, but I enjoy them all and I like the variety and it's fun to have different things to switch between. However, they always say, you know, you should double down on something if you want to be the best at it. But I'm okay, I think with not being the best at any one of those things. I'm very grateful to be able to do all of them. I think the one thing that I'm passionate about at the moment is continuing to involve the work I'm doing with corporates because I do feel like that's going from strength to strength organically. I'm not really pushing that and I'm getting moved from business to business and recommended. That also gives me the means to have an impact, obviously, but also spend more time on the charity because that's where I can earn some money to then go and implement what I need to with M2M. So I mean that's round about roundabout way of saying I don't really know what the future holds or what the next five years holds. But in a weird way that kind of excites me because I never, I would never have been able to call what's happened in the last five years.
And you know, I'm very grateful for the way that my life's opened up and I think it's down to a mindset shift and an attitude rather than a plan, a firm plan in place.
So I'll keep leaning into the things which I find which I get value from, but also areas that I think I can provide value for others and it's reciprocal. Like the, the. The charity work isn't just to help other people. It helps me. And I think, like, that's true of anyone. Like, if you're adding value to other people's lives in any way, as a friend, as a family, as a father, as a partner, as a be, as a business owner, as a boss, whatever it might be, if you're adding value to other people's life rather than just trying to extract things from people, you will feel the rewards of that. That's where we're set. We're set up as human beings. So I'll continue to keep trying to do that where it leads me. I'm not entirely sure. I think my life in the mountains has always got a shelf life because I am getting older. I am not 28 anymore like I was when I had my injuries, first started climbing mountains. But that doesn't mean I'm still not passionate about being outside and helping other people realize the benefits of that.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: I know I shouldn't. It was a terrible question to ask because if I'd said five years ago, what's your plan for the next five years?
So to say, what's your plan now?
Almost denies the reality of what you're going through. And obviously with your amazing wife Lois and extended family, all of whom I know extremely well and I love dearly, and, you know, they've always been there for you in whatever way it would be.
I think, if I may, someone, I attended a seminar on AI and mentoring and, you know, in a world of AI and Lord knows we're in it, you know, and a lot of people say it's. It's certainly powerful. Whether it's powerful for the good or not, you know, we're all going to see and it needs to, it needs to be refined. But were we going to lose mentoring skills? Was it important?
Because you could just, you could input and get all the answers from a machine or could you? And the answer is the human interaction can never be lost.
And I'm sure that's where in a corporate world, and I take what you're saying, where there seems to be so much automation, so much technology.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: And we apparently just have to go with it, that having some human understanding of what's going on to real people surely got to be the right mix and balance.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: A hundred percent, I think.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: I did a session at BCG on the power of vulnerability within leaders and a team and spoke about. We've all played the best teams. The overachieving teams are the ones that are really Tight knit off the field. You know, they know each other's families and kids and they care about each other in, in different walks of life and they're willing to do the extra mile for other people.
And I was chatting to, I was chatting to a guy who's like a senior leader and he asked me a question. He was like, what? How would you say you implement this in our business? Like, how do you get people to follow you through times of change or uncertainty?
And I was like, you can't just stand up. And we've all had coaches like this who either lead with fear or. And they just say, trust me, we need to do this. You can't just say the word trust me. You have to build trust. And that trust isn't built just by you being good at your job. It's built by all those tiny interactions over the previous year. Two years, five years of not just asking them about how their targets are being hit or what's this challenge you're facing at work. It's like, how's your wife? Let's go for a beer after work. And I'm actually going to ask how you are. You know, that's how you build trust with people. That's organic and that's human. So that when push comes to shove and something's falling apart in your business, you don't even need to say, trust me. People just will and they'll follow and they'll feel like they've got. They'll also feel like they're valued and they can input and the team will just be working better for each other. People will work harder for each other. And that is built on human exchange, not on just being told the right thing at the right time. Because AI said so. It's a feeling and not just an exact science.
[00:50:00] Speaker B: No, I can completely agree with that. And I guess that's going to define, I'm sure, what happens to you and the way you go about things in the coming years. So we're out of time. Could go on forever, but we're not going to. And you need to plan your. Your little sabbatical around the world. Hopefully there'll be some wine tasting involved, but they say rum is the next gin, Ed, so perhaps you're in at the right. Fingers crossed. Yeah, we'll see on that. Vapora Rum.
But more importantly, what a privilege it is to have heard you talk your way through those experiences. It's great to have you as a mate. And I think you're probably a man of a generation and many more years of contribution to come and a real pleasure to have you on Haller's Playbook. So thank you, Ed. Good luck to you and your lovely wife Lois. Have a great few months. See you when I get back.
And I'm going to say to all of you, this has been a very special podcast. That's it from Hala's Playbook. See you next time.
